Kents to be replaced by Honda in US

[FranksWilde]

It bloody is for me. I've just spent 500 on a new exhaust.

I've never had a problem with the kent. I'ts very easy to work on and maintain. It's more the cylinder head that has moved on in modern engines. I seem to remember ford using a very similar engine block in the Ka.

I just find it a worry that if there is nothing done to address the situation now then when one of the aftermarket manufacturers pulls the plug, which they will do with such a dwindling market, everyone will be left with a hill climb car.

[onenastyviper]

ka uses a zetec se, a yamaha co-developed engine i think. duratec is mazda co-developed als, i think.

[driftwood]

its simples as Alexander the Meerkat will tell you
it needs 5 or 6 engine builders to throw £2k each into the pot to recast blocks heads in steel and make 10 of them and away you go its been done for alloy BDG stuff plenty of racers using the motors

The usa even made alloy cylinder heads

[Arty B]

[QUOTE=FranksWilde;2512229]

It's more the cylinder head that has moved on in modern engines. I seem to remember ford using a very similar engine block in the Ka.

[QUOTE]

I think you are correct, it was called the Valencia engine after the plant in which it was made. However the Wikipedia entry as below says Fiesta/Escort.

'The engine was revised to suit front wheel drive installation in 1976, co-inciding with the launch of the Ford Fiesta. The ancilliaries were repositioned and the cylinder head redesigned using flat-top pistons and the traditional combustion chamber in the head. This version of the Kent was known as the Valencia engine, after the Spanish production plant in which it was made. It would later see service in the third generation Ford Escort. Even TVR used the engine in the Grantura, Vixen, and 1600M.'

[onenastyviper]

Oh I get it, the revision of kent to valencia...stoopid me, I was thinking of people putting a zetec se engine into a formula ford.
Hang on, in the new duratec class, is it actually a 'duratec' engine or a rebadged zetec-se?, apparently these are not the same...

[Ted bennett]

Originally Posted by onenastyviper

ka uses a zetec se, a yamaha co-developed engine i think. duratec is mazda co-developed als, i think.

I am not an expert by any means on this issue but here goes nonetheless. I am under the impression that the the Duratech used in UK national class FF is the Yamaha/Ford engine formally known as the Zetec-Se and sometimes known as the Sigma engine.

I suspect the the comment about the reverse manifold situation in relation to the Kent is somewhat tongue in cheek. The only fitting issue I know of which I would class as something more than a minor inconvenience is the bellhousing stud pattern being different to the Kent or Zetec fitting but I presume off the shelf parts are available at a price of course. Surely the size of the Duratech is not an issue in the majority of transplant cases ?

As is always the case I must say I am shocked at the prices I have seen quoted for national class Duratech engines from the usual builders. I have looked at the regulations and included with the regs is a very lengthy list of parts required to convert the stock unit into something race ready. I can understand the need for a proper dry sump lubrication system but I do not understand why they went for a completely new inlet manifold assembly and a spec throttle body. Why not use off the shelf standard parts ? A spec ECU I can also understand as that needs to be checkable somehow by scrutineers.
The sports 2000 guys have sorted out a new engine for their cars without any help/interference from Ford and it looks much more sensible for the club racer. A kit is available to convert a stock 2.0 litre Duratech lump for around Three thousand pounds which includes a set of fancy throttle bodies. Plenty of engines availble for 500 quid down at the breakers.
A club spec FF Duratech using a standard induction set up should come in a bit cheaper than that, maybe change from 2500 quid. All that is required is a set of tech regs to work from and a class to run the converted cars in. A power output inline with a Kent unit should help keep everybody sweet.

Kent 1600 started out as something affordable for the club racer and I feel that Club Duratech should aim towards the same ideal.

[SAMD]

Whaaaaoo!!! now you're talkin' baby. That sounds like a lot o sense to me. And very much in line with the FF ethos. Surely if even the conversion kit could be bought for £2.5k all it would/will take is two or three boys to do the conversion and go well and everyone will be fighting for a kit. Can you imagine the indecent scramble to convert once someone wins with one.
The ECU will need to replicate the performance of a topline Kent engine, or else the front runners will have to keep building hot Kent engines. But it means of course that the playing field becomes much more flat because anyone can/will have the extra horse or five. Generally the same guys will keep winning because it is not just the engine that wins, but there will be less muttering in the paddock about how someone got passed down the back straight.

[0100]

I think you guys are missing how great this really is. The $12000 price is everything(db1 conversion, new engine, race engine conversion package) NEW from honda. Which is great and can be bolted up in your swift in a weekend. DONE!

*DB1 conversion (more cars to come) $4,450
*New Fit engine $2,500
+Race engine conversion package $5,050

*Don't have to buy.
+Only thing needed from honda!

OR

You don't have to do that. YOU CAN buy a used engine. Can be found $500-$750 all day long and figure out how to mount it yourself, shouldn't be hard. Soooooooooo find a $10k DB1 rolling chassis, $500 engine at the junkyard, $5,050 conv. pkg. from honda, figure out how to mount that Fit engine with a few mates and some cold ones = $15,550 FormulaFit that will run 200,000 miles. lol ok not that long but you are not going to be taking that Fit engine out anytime soon. MORE RACING!!!!!!!!

Trust me this is huge, come back to this post in 5 years and prove me wrong.

[driftwood]

for $12k i can rebuild kent engine for the next 10 years possibly longer

i think many guys will think the same keep the kent and pay out $1200 or $3000 as and when required
tomorrow you need to spend $12k to get going
also DB1 cars swift never made that many cars
If Honda want to offer motor to formual club racers they need to work alot harder too many different cars make syears fittimg kits too many countires championships etc etc
see my earlier post honda need to start a pukka series with certain rules to make it viable

[0100]

I agree a pukka series would be cool, but this is the hand we have been dealt.

New chassis builders like piper and citation will be building cars that the Honda Fit engine will bolt right into. So no $4,450 conversion pkg needed.

More conversion kit's will be available as time goes on, for other older chassis' besides the DB1. If you have the skill you can just mount the Fit engine yourself though. All you need is $5500 total for a used engine and race engine conversion pkg(sump, wiring, ecu etc).

This is geared more to the newcomers to FF and the guys sitting with a blown up kent in there garage and doesn't want to rebuild again. Nothing is stopping people from running kent engines to the end of time. It's just another option and I personally think a good option. That is what is so good about this everyone is happy (the guys who will always run kent's and the guy that never want's to touch a kent again.

I just want to state again this is NOT a sealed engine from honda which is great. You don't have to drop $2500 on a sealed engine from honda you can buy a $500 junkyard special that has 60,000 miles and was driven by an old lady to get groceries(aka not even broken in yet).

[driftwood]

do you mean the engine or the old lady?

[0100]

hahahaha

I already have one old lady, I definitely don't need another one.

[FranksWilde]

Originally Posted by 0100

This is geared more to the newcomers to FF and the guys sitting with a blown up kent in there garage and doesn't want to rebuild again. Nothing is stopping people from running kent engines to the end of time. It's just another option and I personally think a good option. That is what is so good about this everyone is happy (the guys who will always run kent's and the guy that never want's to touch a kent again.

This is what I was trying to say but not as succinctly. Keep them the same horsepower and then people have options. THE SAME FOR EVERYBODY. You may even be allowed to travel to other championships once the parity between engines is established.

[JNWRF01]

Would the clubs allow you to enter? Would JEB allow entry to the WHT etc?? If so - I would be happy to put a car together for a bit of fun... Anyone else?

[driftwood]

no i would not waste my money converting motors $12k is a lot of kent rebuilds

[kartingdad]

.....Rebuilds because they have fallen to bits, generally in a race. So factor in your wasted race fees, test fees, aggro factor taking the engine in and out ect. and it soon makes more sense.

My engine builder had to send a high proportion of his latest batch of pistons back as the quality was so bad.

So it makes you wonder if the pistons that are deemed acceptable are just 'less bad', not that they are 'good', if you see what I mean.

[Redracer77]

Although $12,000 seems like a lot of money it is about £7,500 in normal money which is not a bad deal for a brand new engine with a conversion kit. I would think that Van Diemen would charge that for just converting a zetec to kent without an engine.....

Over the next few years we will need somewhere for the older Duratecs to go so it will be inevitable that they will be adopted by either F4 or Monoposto. But they really should form the basis of Class A in regional FF.....

[kartingdad]

I've been saying that for ages....

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by JNWRF01

Would the clubs allow you to enter? Would JEB allow entry to the WHT etc?? If so - I would be happy to put a car together for a bit of fun... Anyone else?

Without a shadow of a doubt you can count me in.

I think the big thing here is GIVE PEOPLE THE OPTION. There are always going to be people who will try and make their kents last as long as possible, but also, with the inherent problems the kent engine has, there are many (like the few lonely voices on here!) who would take the plunge and invest in a modern, more reliable alternative.

The trouble is what needs to be avoided is a two class FF1600, as what makes it so good are the sheer number of people that can compete at the big one off meetings such as the WHT etc. Therefore I would imagine there would need to be an on track trial period where the equalisation of the duratec with the kent is established.

[kartingdad]

Just get an independant driver to test a kent and restricted duratec until they are producing the same lap times. A lump od ballast will probably be needed as well.

Its not going to be easy...

But it needs doing.

[JNWRF01]

I doubt you will ever get parity... Aussie rules of Duratec are something like 3secs a lap quick in the same chassis - they have ACB10s and I think a slightly less power (compared to UK) motor.... So unless you limit duratecs to say 90hps - i can't see how you do it.

[kartingdad]

Restrictor plate and ECU remap should sort it out, plus the weight issue.

I would have thought the weight issue (I don't know what the figures are) would be the hardest as the kent has cast iron head etc., meaning a significant weight high up, whilst the duratec has ally head and plastic inlet tracts.

So although you can add ballast it would be in a different place to the kent engined version.

I think the best would be for a two tier series, like they do in lots of other current and popular popular championships. I mean, just look at the XR series. Fiestas and Escorts...

Lets face it, the system we have at the moment hardly has oversubscribed grids so what harm can it do.

Barring a few exceptions, the class A cars tend to be a bit quicker anyway.

I know the saying, 'If it aint broke, don't fix it', but it is crumbling before our eyes, just look at the entry for the Donington event at the weekend. I'm also not saying a change of engines will be the saviour of FF, but to do nothing seems a bit defeatist.

[driftwood]

yeah lets do that then find aman who is qualified to inspect tehcars to make sure there is no cheating going on
then it will get messy !!

if it aint broke why fix it?
let the yanks be the guinnee pigs and sort it out

UK has enough agro with economic climate low grids high cost of tyres circuit owners doing us all in the derrier with fees let alone another formula or class within a series to decimate grids

[FFmygale]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

Lets face it, the system we have at the moment hardly has oversubscribed grids so what harm can it do.

Barring a few exceptions, the class A cars tend to be a bit quicker anyway.

I know the saying, 'If it aint broke, don't fix it', but it is crumbling before our eyes, just look at the entry for the Donington event at the weekend. I'm also not saying a change of engines will be the saviour of FF, but to do nothing seems a bit defeatist.

Agreed - entry numbers have dwindled massively, and whilst this is doubtless, in part, due to the economy in general at the moment, surely the cost and 'reliability' issues of the kent engine can't be helping?

Infact, if I recall correctly, I heard that a certain person spent £8k on a kent engine a few years back to ensure he had the top performing one? I guess this could easily have been a rumour but knowing who built the engine and the time he put in to his engines I could well believe it! This would just be a waste of money in the duratec - modern machining tolerances would surely make such performance gains non existent?

There are certainly a few people out there (me being one of them) who aren't currently racing kents but would do if the duratec engine were allowed. Surely this shouldn't just be dismissed but should, in some way be looked at seriously as an option by the organisers or, dare I say it....... JEB????

[SAMD]

Well all I can go on is my own experiance.
I am currently negotiating with one of the top engine builders to build me a big engine for next year. (Has anyone ever heard that one before?) And even after using my best negotiating skills it will still cost me £5k+ So.. if I could get an engine as good as any out there, for the figures previously talked about, that gave the longevity that is talked about, would I go for it? You're darn tootin' I would go for it!!!

Incidently - different subject, but some connection... I know naaathing about ECUs. but is it possible, say... to have an engine that produces 125bhp and you use the ECU to cut the bhp to 110. Then, with due wear and tear the engine's performance starts to drop from 125 to 120 and then 115 the 'enforced 110bhp limit' will still be maintained? Until the engine is producing less that 110?
Can it be set up that that could happen? Or can it only be set for a 12.5% reduction in performance?