MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'

[Evomike]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

I don't recall seeing anywhere MSNZ saying they were going to include STs in the meeting. Maybe I've missed it. All I've seen is people saying they said that. Got a link to anything official?
Maybe they said "yeah we will look at it" they looked at it, realised they are already commited and said "sorry, can't be done"

Msnz dont decide they are not the promotors. I never said they decided they would be. What they did was put forward a number of suggestions and the promotor decides. Its not up to me to educate you. Life is too short for that

[Swedish Brick]

I do wonder what part of commiment ot other classes/sponsrs you don't understand?

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

I don't recall seeing anywhere MSNZ saying they were going to include STs in the meeting. Maybe I've missed it. All I've seen is people saying they said that. Got a link to anything official?
Maybe they said "yeah we will look at it" they looked at it, realised they are already commited and said "sorry, can't be done"

Maybe you don't know half of what you think you do.
By now you must realise that there are people posting here that are closely connected to the sport at the coal face. Some in fact take the time ask a bunch of questions, do some reading and form their own opinions.

Take the personalities out of the equation and look at the actions. It matters little what people say, it is critical what they do.

Murph is no spring chicken but he has a massive fan base. You may not care but there are many many people who were possible hithero unaware of the cancer in the sport that will now be asking WTF?

[Evomike]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

I do wonder what part of commiment ot other classes/sponsrs you don't understand?

You really dont listen do you

[Swedish Brick]

Yes I am well aware there are some people closely involved on here. Unfortunatly it seems a number of them seem to be here for their own personal gain ethics and honesty be dammed!

Yes I have looked at the actions, and I have not seen any evidence of the theory/opinion I posted support of to not be true?

Is there a release or offical anything where MSNZ said they will support an entry of the STs to the meeting?
If there is I'm just asking to see it. I mean if you want to portray the truth and you have evidence of it why not show it so others can be properly informed?

And if there is, why does the explanation of commitments to sponsors etc not explain enough? What can the do if they have signed deals and commitments? By doing what the STs want, they then have to **** on others. The exact thing the ST fan club claim they are doing if they don't support the STs!

All I see here is people either with annonymous names or possibly compromised interests due to business interests claiming their version is correct and no other possiblity can be true.

[Evomike]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Yes I am well aware there are some people closely involved on here. Unfortunatly it seems a number of them seem to be here for their own personal gain ethics and honesty be dammed!

Yes I have looked at the actions, and I have not seen any evidence of the theory/opinion I posted support of to not be true?

Is there a release or offical anything where MSNZ said they will support an entry of the STs to the meeting?
If there is I'm just asking to see it. I mean if you want to portray the truth and you have evidence of it why not show it so others can be properly informed?

And if there is, why does the explanation of commitments to sponsors etc not explain enough? What can the do if they have signed deals and commitments? By doing what the STs want, they then have to **** on others. The exact thing the ST fan club claim they are doing if they don't support the STs!

All I see here is people either with annonymous names or possibly compromised interests due to business interests claiming their version is correct and no other possiblity can be true.

It has been covered in these forums with links...it is not up to everyone else to keep reposting them...where is the link where they say the reason is becausw of sponsors commitments. And when will u reveal your true identity? If u r so concerned about faceless posters.

[Swedish Brick]

So there is an offical release detailing what you say? Are you sure it's been posted on here? Just had a look back and I can't see them. However I can see references to MSNZ saying they need to support commited classes.

I'm not concerned, I just keep it in mind when I read dodgy posts

[Evomike]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

So there is an offical release detailing what you say? Are you sure it's been posted on here? Just had a look back and I can't see them. However I can see references to MSNZ saying they need to support commited classes.

I'm not concerned, I just keep it in mind when I read dodgy posts

So you are going to remain anonymous then?

[Swedish Brick]

You can call me Richard. Or Sir.

What about the rest of my questions?

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

So there is an offical release detailing what you say? Are you sure it's been posted on here? Just had a look back and I can't see them. However I can see references to MSNZ saying they need to support commited classes.

[Shane Drake]

GENTLEMAN,

MY PHONE HAS BEEN BUSY LAST NIGHT AND THIS MORNING SO I FIND IT NECESSARY TO FINALLY SPEAK IN PUBLIC ABOUT THESE ISSUES AS GREG MURPHY HAS DONE THIS WEEK ON TWO OCCASIONS.

TODAYS PROGRAMME CRC MOTORSPORT ON TV3 WHICH YOU WILL ALL KNOW BY NOW WAS PRE RECORDED ON FRIDAY AND ON COMPLETION OF THE PROGRAMME WE WERE ADVISED BY BRIAN BUDD TO NOT GO AHEAD WITH SAYING WHATEVER WE WERE REPORTING ON EVEN THOUGH SHAYNE HARRIS WAS ASKED TO APPEAR AND FAILED TO REPLY UNTIL NIGEL THE PRODUCER OF THE SHOW REMINDED HIM AFTER SEVERAL ATTEMPTS TO CONTACT HIM.

I SPENT HOURS THIS WEEK TALKING TO ALL PARTIES CONCERNED IN NZV8, V8ST, V8SC LAND AND MORE OVER THESE RECENT ISSUES OF MSNZ DOING A U TURN ON CREATING ONE GREAT SERIES WITH TRS, NZV8, TLX AND V8ST, THE TAUPO JOINT VENTURE MEETING AND THE V8SC MEETING. I AM ALSO IN RECEIPT OF SEVERAL EMAILS THAT CONFIRM ALL OF THE CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN THE PARTIES.

I MUST POINT OUT THAT I DID NOT TALK TO ANYONE FROM MSNZ AND THE REASON BEHIND THAT IS ALL THE FACTS I WAS GIVEN COMBINED WITH THE CONTINUAL DENIAL OF THE SITUATION BY MSNZ, THEIR ALREADY PUBLIC BACKWARD STEPS ALONG WITH SHAYNE HARRIS FAILING TO FRONT TELLS US A LOT.

WHAT I HAVE UNEARTHED IS QUITE CONCERNING AND CAN NOW UNDERSTAND WHY GREG HAS FINALLY FLOWN OFF THE HANDLE AND SPOKEN.

I HAVE SPOKEN LIKE MANY TO RAYMOND BENNETT ABOUT THESE AND A LOT OF CONCERNS AND WHILEST HE AGREES, ITS SEEMS HE CANT DO MUCH ABOUT IT. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF VERY SUCCESSFUL INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE PUT MANY MANY HOURS OF THEIR OWN TIME AND MONEY TO TRY AND GET A RESOLUTION HERE FOR THE GOOD OF THE SPORT AND AS OF NOW THEY ARE JUST GOB SMACKED AT THE CURRENT SITUATION. THERE IS A LOT MORE GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES OF MSNZ THAN WHAT WE ALL CARE TO KNOW ABOUT. SOME PEOPLE ARE MORE RESPONSIBLE FOR CERTAIN GOINGS ON THAN WHAT WE ARE LED TO BELIEVE AND THERE IS STILL FAR TOO MUCH INPUT FROM OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE HAD THEIR DAY, FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER.

I HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE COME INTO CHICANE RACEWEAR EVERY WEEK FROM CLUB TO NATIONAL LEVEL COMPETITORS AND NOT ONE OF THEM HAS NICE THINGS TO SAY ABOUT OUR SPORT, THE WAY IT IS BEING RUN AND THE WAY IT APPEARS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. THESE PEOPLE ARE FRUSTRATED WITH THIS FIGHT AND LACK OF LEADERSHIP, THE CHANGING OF RULES AND REGULAIONS AND MANY OF THEM ARE JUST LEAVING THEIR CARS IN THE SHED.

MSNZ CAN NOT BE PROUD OF WHAT IT IS PROMOTING AT THE MOMENT, LAST WEEKENDS NZ MOTORCUP WASNT GOOD FOR ANYONE OTHER THAN TOYOTA WHICH WAS OBVIOUS YET IN STARK CONTRAST THE CLASSIC MOTOR RACING FESTIVALS CIRCLING THE COUNTRY AT PRESENT ARE A REMINDER THAT THERE IS SOME POSITIVE THINGS GOING ON IN OUR SPORT. IF SOMETHING ISNT DONE SOON BY THE SPORT TO START LISTENING TO ITS MEMBERS THEN THEY MAY FIND THEMSELVES UP AGAINST SOMETHING MORE POWERFUL THAN A CAR CLUB.

MORE IS IN THE SHOW TODAY BUT ITS ABOUT MOTORSPORT, NOT CURRENT AFFAIRS SO ITS BRIEF.

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Evomike

You whine about reading what you post. I will say this slowly for you msnz said they had put them forward I didnt say they had dropped nzv8s. Msnz have confirmed that and that it was up to the promoter. Msnz then changed their minds and withdrew their support. Need proof? Read msnzs own press release....ffs

I also read that press release stating that MSNZ had put a proposal to V8SC's to consider V8ST as a support class. And then they pulled back on it. Now what I find to be really odd is that I can't find a link for the original release anywhere.

Then Shane Harris says this "It has been decided that at this late stage in the process MSNZ was not prepared to include it ahead of support categories that have previously supported the V8 Supercar event."

I'm afraid this is all getting very, very dark for the sport, and IMHO there are very definitely hidden agendas.

[Vanishing Point]

Originally Posted by Shane Drake

GENTLEMAN,

MY PHONE HAS BEEN BUSY LAST NIGHT AND THIS MORNING SO I FIND IT NECESSARY TO FINALLY SPEAK IN PUBLIC ABOUT THESE ISSUES AS GREG MURPHY HAS DONE THIS WEEK ON TWO OCCASIONS.

TODAYS PROGRAMME CRC MOTORSPORT ON TV3 WHICH YOU WILL ALL KNOW BY NOW WAS PRE RECORDED ON FRIDAY AND ON COMPLETION OF THE PROGRAMME WE WERE ADVISED BY BRIAN BUDD TO NOT GO AHEAD WITH SAYING WHATEVER WE WERE REPORTING ON EVEN THOUGH SHAYNE HARRIS WAS ASKED TO APPEAR AND FAILED TO REPLY UNTIL NIGEL THE PRODUCER OF THE SHOW REMINDED HIM AFTER SEVERAL ATTEMPTS TO CONTACT HIM.

I SPENT HOURS THIS WEEK TALKING TO ALL PARTIES CONCERNED IN NZV8, V8ST, V8SC LAND AND MORE OVER THESE RECENT ISSUES OF MSNZ DOING A U TURN ON CREATING ONE GREAT SERIES WITH TRS, NZV8, TLX AND V8ST, THE TAUPO JOINT VENTURE MEETING AND THE V8SC MEETING. I AM ALSO IN RECEIPT OF SEVERAL EMAILS THAT CONFIRM ALL OF THE CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN THE PARTIES.

I MUST POINT OUT THAT I DID NOT TALK TO ANYONE FROM MSNZ AND THE REASON BEHIND THAT IS ALL THE FACTS I WAS GIVEN COMBINED WITH THE CONTINUAL DENIAL OF THE SITUATION BY MSNZ, THEIR ALREADY PUBLIC BACKWARD STEPS ALONG WITH SHAYNE HARRIS FAILING TO FRONT TELLS US A LOT.

WHAT I HAVE UNEARTHED IS QUITE CONCERNING AND CAN NOW UNDERSTAND WHY GREG HAS FINALLY FLOWN OFF THE HANDLE AND SPOKEN.

I HAVE SPOKEN LIKE MANY TO RAYMOND BENNETT ABOUT THESE AND A LOT OF CONCERNS AND WHILEST HE AGREES, ITS SEEMS HE CANT DO MUCH ABOUT IT. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF VERY SUCCESSFUL INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE PUT MANY MANY HOURS OF THEIR OWN TIME AND MONEY TO TRY AND GET A RESOLUTION HERE FOR THE GOOD OF THE SPORT AND AS OF NOW THEY ARE JUST GOB SMACKED AT THE CURRENT SITUATION. THERE IS A LOT MORE GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES OF MSNZ THAN WHAT WE ALL CARE TO KNOW ABOUT. SOME PEOPLE ARE MORE RESPONSIBLE FOR CERTAIN GOINGS ON THAN WHAT WE ARE LED TO BELIEVE AND THERE IS STILL FAR TOO MUCH INPUT FROM OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE HAD THEIR DAY, FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER.

I HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE COME INTO CHICANE RACEWEAR EVERY WEEK FROM CLUB TO NATIONAL LEVEL COMPETITORS AND NOT ONE OF THEM HAS NICE THINGS TO SAY ABOUT OUR SPORT, THE WAY IT IS BEING RUN AND THE WAY IT APPEARS IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. THESE PEOPLE ARE FRUSTRATED WITH THIS FIGHT AND LACK OF LEADERSHIP, THE CHANGING OF RULES AND REGULAIONS AND MANY OF THEM ARE JUST LEAVING THEIR CARS IN THE SHED.

MSNZ CAN NOT BE PROUD OF WHAT IT IS PROMOTING AT THE MOMENT, LAST WEEKENDS NZ MOTORCUP WASNT GOOD FOR ANYONE OTHER THAN TOYOTA WHICH WAS OBVIOUS YET IN STARK CONTRAST THE CLASSIC MOTOR RACING FESTIVALS CIRCLING THE COUNTRY AT PRESENT ARE A REMINDER THAT THERE IS SOME POSITIVE THINGS GOING ON IN OUR SPORT. IF SOMETHING ISNT DONE SOON BY THE SPORT TO START LISTENING TO ITS MEMBERS THEN THEY MAY FIND THEMSELVES UP AGAINST SOMETHING MORE POWERFUL THAN A CAR CLUB.

MORE IS IN THE SHOW TODAY BUT ITS ABOUT MOTORSPORT, NOT CURRENT AFFAIRS SO ITS BRIEF.

Thanks Shane for clarifying and confirming the facts, maybe now the one eyed MSNZ Posters will start to see how damaging MSNZ are being to our sport. Thanks for having the balls to stand up and say something..

[NZSTfan]

WOW!, thanks for your insight Shane.

Can anyone see a clear-cut way forward from all this mess?

It seems pretty obvious that MSNZ will not sanction the ST's in time for R1, which was on the table initially, during the 'talks' they had.

So thats another thing that msnz have reneged on. To say that certain things have been 'agreed in principle' as per the speedcafe report...

http://www.speedcafe.co.nz/2013/01/1...mier-category/

and then to do a complete turnaround speaks volumes for the people at msnz.

Unless of course msnz get off their backsides and sanction the series in time for R1.....but do you really think that will happen, i doubt it.

Oh well, if it doesn't happen it wont affect the success of ST's. The fans have already voted with their feet, the most commited TV channel is staying true to what they believe offers the best for fans and sponsors, and that really sums it up.

On the outside, no one really gives a hoot about msnz and their lack of governence.

On the inside, it is clear that this is simply a sausage fest, where certain ego's will not fall on their sword and admit that times have moved on, together with the fans and sponsors.

Those wheels certainly have fallen off, and are now lying in a ditch somewhere.

MSNZ hang your collective heads in shame. You are ruining the sport that WE all love so much.

[Vanishing Point]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

WOW!, thanks for your insight Shane.

Can anyone see a clear-cut way forward from all this mess?

It seems pretty obvious that MSNZ will not sanction the ST's in time for R1, which was on the table initially, during the 'talks' they had.

So thats another thing that msnz have reneged on. To say that certain things have been 'agreed in principle' as per the speedcafe report...

http://www.speedcafe.co.nz/2013/01/1...mier-category/

and then to do a complete turnaround speaks volumes for the people at msnz.

Unless of course msnz get off their backsides and sanction the series in time for R1.....but do you really think that will happen, i doubt it.

Oh well, if it doesn't happen it wont affect the success of ST's. The fans have already voted with their feet, the most commited TV channel is staying true to what they believe offers the best for fans and sponsors, and that really sums it up.

On the outside, no one really gives a hoot about msnz and their lack of governence.

On the inside, it is clear that this is simply a sausage fest, where certain ego's will not fall on their sword and admit that times have moved on, together with the fans and sponsors.

Those wheels certainly have fallen off, and are now lying in a ditch somewhere.

MSNZ hang your collective heads in shame. You are ruining the sport that WE all love so much.

Superbly written post.

Thank you NZSTFAN

[KRDG]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

WOW!, thanks for your insight Shane.

Can anyone see a clear-cut way forward from all this mess?

It seems pretty obvious that MSNZ will not sanction the ST's in time for R1, which was on the table initially, during the 'talks' they had.

So thats another thing that msnz have reneged on. To say that certain things have been 'agreed in principle' as per the speedcafe report...

http://www.speedcafe.co.nz/2013/01/1...mier-category/

and then to do a complete turnaround speaks volumes for the people at msnz.

Unless of course msnz get off their backsides and sanction the series in time for R1.....but do you really think that will happen, i doubt it.

Oh well, if it doesn't happen it wont affect the success of ST's. The fans have already voted with their feet, the most commited TV channel is staying true to what they believe offers the best for fans and sponsors, and that really sums it up.

On the outside, no one really gives a hoot about msnz and their lack of governence.

On the inside, it is clear that this is simply a sausage fest, where certain ego's will not fall on their sword and admit that times have moved on, together with the fans and sponsors.

Those wheels certainly have fallen off, and are now lying in a ditch somewhere.

MSNZ hang your collective heads in shame. You are ruining the sport that WE all love so much.

Thanks for good posts. The last couple.

One thing that keeps coming to mind regarding this sorry mess is that there must be a mass of corruption sitting beneath the lid of MSNZ affairs. There utterly has to be. The purchase of the suite at HD several years ago and the use of the TMC Company as a private club for the execs of MSNZ and officers of that company plus private advantage gained for some of those individuals is what must be at the core of it all.

It has to be. Its not rocket science. This is played out time and time again in other business areas I don’t need to list………. oh OK…………. finance companies……………. For one.

The only other reason is gross incompetence but while some involved may be just that, grossly incompetent, the majority is not. Far from it.

Why else would we have this most inexplicable stance in the public arena from the top of MSNZ.

There is a very big spotlight about to be put on all sport in NZL regarding corruption so MSNZ better get the shredder going flat out (impossible to do in these electronic days) or have a very good exit strategy worked out.

The terriers at the company office wont relax till the job is done and directors of TMC/MPL and related companies are made to account.

Thanks also to the good journalists. It is time to do your job.

[Alpina107]

Originally Posted by promax

maybe they should invite the support classes that are meant to make way from the st class. should be interesting to hear how they would feel and their sponsors would feel if they were bumped from the card when they've already made a commitment to attend this meeting. will classes/teams be reimbursed if they are dropped weeks out from the meeting? would Greg care?

Perhaps the other support classes don't have to be affected at all?

With only 10-15 in the combined TL/TLX field, why not simply add a third "class" with 20+ ST running at the same time? I think Puke can take 42 cars on the grid, and wouldn't it look and sound great to have 35 V8's racing at the same time - a bit like the "good old days". (before the wheels fell off!)

Logistically, it would be simple to do this, but that doesn't allow for the human involvement, and as we've seen before, that seems to be the crux of the problems and lack of progress. So it ain't gonna happen!

[Woolley]

I've spent a lot of time around the fringes of this, watching people talking to themselves under different names (yes, I know who most of you are or are closely aligned with) and I've come up with a theory.

You guys deserve each other. Frankly, drop the motorsports and just do this as reality TV.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I've spent a lot of time around the fringes of this, watching people talking to themselves under different names (yes, I know who most of you are or are closely aligned with) and I've come up with a theory.

You guys deserve each other. Frankly, drop the motorsports and just do this as reality TV.

aww, come on MR Woolley. are you implying their are schizophrenic (SP) posters on here, arguing inside their split level heads ??

name and shame time

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

name and shame time

Nah, frankly it's become too much fun. It's either that or ban nearly everybody.

Anyway, back to the topic. If anyone can truly remember which thread they're in.

[Sommersby]

Originally Posted by Swedish Brick

Put ST forward? Did they do that? Did they actually say "Yes we will run ST or ask SC abotu running ST there"?
Or was there a meeting and all they said was we will consider it?

As Promax said, once the event is laid out, there are commitments to other classes/sponsors. Not as easy as just saying "you and you are out, these guys are in"
Has there been any news on wether or not the decison was MSNZ and thiers alone? Did the SC's say "no"? Were they even asked?
Seems like there is probably a **** load more to the story than is being portrayed here and by washed up whinger sin the press.
Yes, I did just call murphy a washed up whinger.

So lets move away from ST, and focus on a class that only gives to motorsport in NZ: Formula 5000.

f5000 were invited to be part the Pukekohe supports ( despite not meeting MSNZ criteria on having appeared at the V8SC round previously) but the group voted 29-2 against taking part.

This must leave a gap?

I have all the releases backing up what has been said. This is only an issue because MSNZ said they would recommend the ST being at the race.

V8SC were okay with it, until MSNZ changed their minds.

In the meantime I know that one top kiwi driver ( as it would happen an ST driver) almost had to pull out of the 12hr this weekend....because his licence renewal sent in over 2 months ago had been seemingly 'forgotten' by MSNZ.

Nuts and bolts?

[raymond]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

WOW!, thanks for your insight Shane.

Can anyone see a clear-cut way forward from all this mess?

It seems pretty obvious that MSNZ will not sanction the ST's in time for R1, which was on the table initially, during the 'talks' they had.

So thats another thing that msnz have reneged on. To say that certain things have been 'agreed in principle' as per the speedcafe report...

http://www.speedcafe.co.nz/2013/01/1...mier-category/

and then to do a complete turnaround speaks volumes for the people at msnz.

Unless of course msnz get off their backsides and sanction the series in time for R1.....but do you really think that will happen, i doubt it.

Oh well, if it doesn't happen it wont affect the success of ST's. The fans have already voted with their feet, the most commited TV channel is staying true to what they believe offers the best for fans and sponsors, and that really sums it up.

On the outside, no one really gives a hoot about msnz and their lack of governence.

On the inside, it is clear that this is simply a sausage fest, where certain ego's will not fall on their sword and admit that times have moved on, together with the fans and sponsors.

Those wheels certainly have fallen off, and are now lying in a ditch somewhere.

MSNZ hang your collective heads in shame. You are ruining the sport that WE all love so much.

Some of us a still working hard to get the sanctioning of V8ST done before the first round.

[raymond]

KRDG

There is no "seething mass of corruption" at MSNZ.

The HD unit was bought with TMC company funds and when the sport questioned this, it was sold within a year? .
I was never invitied to go to this unit, there was no secret gentlemens club or drinksfest for the boys as you suggest.
MSNZ has had hospitality suites at some of the V8SC rounds in the past as part of the agreement between V8SC and MSNZ and these were used for sponsors of the sport and other facets of the sport we represent such as VCC, Drag Racing, Kartsport and the like.

There is a big mess to fix, not all of MSNZ's doing, so I have mentioned the above so we are dealing in fact, not fantasy.
For me/us to get things back on track and to see an end to all this crap is a huge job, not helped by comments that are ill informed. Shayne and Shaun listed some good points, which can be used as a basis for moving forward.

I will no doubt be censured severly for this post, but the mention of the word corruption just brings in a whole new level when it is not correct, has no factual basis and is just a personal dig at MSNZ.

By the way; enjoying the weekend at the Lake, but water too warm and the fish are hiding.

[KRDG]

Originally Posted by raymond

Some of us a still working hard to get the sanctioning of V8ST done before the first round.

Work harder and faster Raymond and thank you for your honesty.

[KRDG]

Originally Posted by raymond

KRDG

There is no "seething mass of corruption" at MSNZ.

The HD unit was bought with TMC company funds and when the sport questioned this, it was sold within a year? .
I was never invitied to go to this unit, there was no secret gentlemens club or drinksfest for the boys as you suggest.
MSNZ has had hospitality suites at some of the V8SC rounds in the past as part of the agreement between V8SC and MSNZ and these were used for sponsors of the sport and other facets of the sport we represent such as VCC, Drag Racing, Kartsport and the like.

There is a big mess to fix, not all of MSNZ's doing, so I have mentioned the above so we are dealing in fact, not fantasy.
For me/us to get things back on track and to see an end to all this crap is a huge job, not helped by comments that are ill informed. Shayne and Shaun listed some good points, which can be used as a basis for moving forward.

I will no doubt be censured severly for this post, but the mention of the word corruption just brings in a whole new level when it is not correct, has no factual basis and is just a personal dig at MSNZ.

By the way; enjoying the weekend at the Lake, but water too warm and the fish are hiding.

I actually hope you are right about this Raymond.

However........

You do know the appartment in question was on sold or assigned to Mr Short, dont you?

[Sommersby]

Originally Posted by KRDG

Work harder and faster Raymond and thank you for your honesty.

Hear hear