HRSR Car Reg eligibility discussion

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

So, if I understand this right, the HRSR runs to an established FIA set of regulations. They've started at 1965 which in effect was the year the regs were written (although they came into force in 1966 when these cars were racing) and thus our argument appears to be that they are running a championship (very successfully as I understand it) for cars one year too early?

C'mon guys where's the problem? Yes it might be a good idea to allow cars up to 1969 but as I said before after 67 (I didn't mention a date) Touring Cars ran to Group 2 regs.

I think everyone would happily live with that
no the problem is that the FIA rules for cars pre 66 are becoming increasingly the benchmark for all other series, indeed in Europe the cars needto have FIA papers.
HRSR allow ars to run oversized engines (so long as they were before 2002 I think it was) so LC can run 1900 engines, Alfa Sprint GTs' can run 2000 (against 1600 being the period engine) and Anglia's 1500 etc.. and they can run modern brakes, etc.....
the point being that if you run your car to FIA spec you are going to be left in the dust of an Anglia etc.. which is a massive distortion of history and more importantly simply because it is in many ways merely a siloette against your period correct car. So at the risk of repeating myself I am saying either run to FIA as well OR move the cut off to say 1969 and have all the great cars of teh late 60's in it. But dont have this mish mash that is currently in it. If anyone takes this personally I apologise and certainly dont take any criticism of anything I have said personally!

[Peter Mallett]

Yeah,

But they don't want to and they seem to be successful. They don't race in FIA classes anymore so there really isn't a problem.

[simon drabble]

today you are absolutely correct but in the fullness of time I think you will find they need to come off the fence - as I said earlier I dont have an eligible car so its completely academic what I think but it seems to have passed a Friday afternoon quite well ;-)

[zefarelly]

its tough at the Top eh Simon

says me now posting from home with a large glass of claret!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by Yimkin

And the FIA allows the use of accusumps (invented in the year of our lord 2000 AD IIRC)

(and despite some peoples opinion, an accusump is a performance mod...)

Oh no they don't

[Yimkin]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Hall

Oh no they don't

Maybe(TBH I wasn't 100% positive and I stand corrected), but I know for a fact there are several historic cars with full FIA papers that have accusumps.... including a couple on sale now advertising the fact

[zefarelly]

after all this hot airs been expelled on prep and spec I have to say If I had another 20k to burn I'd probably build another car to club/HRSR spec, that way I 'd have a car I like fit for any race eventuality.

[SteveRead]

Replying to Simon Drabble about HRSR. There aren't any "hot rodders" as you describe them in HRSR. I don't know who you are, a spectator with a box brownie perhaps. I'll tell you who race in HRSR,highly competitive, talented and entertaining drivers, completely committed to what they do. There are a few incidents, regrettable,but we're not out there to parade, we're out there to race. When you race properly,not ponce about in a race suit to impress you're wife or girlfriend, there is sometimes a very fine line between close racing and contact. Considering we're on grotty old M section Dunlops, very often on wet or greasy tracks at high speed in big powerful cars I think/know it's a credit to all involved there are so few instances of damage.

As you might of guessed I'm one of the "big" Anglia drivers in HRSR who don't take kindly to being criticised by people who have no idea what hard close racing is about.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by SteveRead

Replying to Simon Drabble about HRSR. There aren't any "hot rodders" as you describe them in HRSR. I don't know who you are, a spectator with a box brownie perhaps. I'll tell you who race in HRSR,highly competitive, talented and entertaining drivers, completely committed to what they do. There are a few incidents, regrettable,but we're not out there to parade, we're out there to race. When you race properly,not ponce about in a race suit to impress you're wife or girlfriend, there is sometimes a very fine line between close racing and contact. Considering we're on grotty old M section Dunlops, very often on wet or greasy tracks at high speed in big powerful cars I think/know it's a credit to all involved there are so few instances of damage.

As you might of guessed I'm one of the "big" Anglia drivers in HRSR who don't take kindly to being criticised by people who have no idea what hard close racing is about.

wow - where do I start! I havent a box brownie, wouldn't mind one though as they are true to period!
I sadly dont get much time to spectate when at a track and did race with HRSR for 2 or 3 seasons and was one of those that successfully voted to ban oversized engines. I am not going to go over the arguments again as I think everyone knows where everyone stands on the subject.
However the one observation I would make is that I hope the road rage you show in the post above is not shown on the track, otherwise you are going to get more than your pride dented young man!!
I race with HSCC as well and will take time out of the May Silverstone meeting to come and watch the oversized Anglia's play in the manner you describe above so well!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by SteveRead

There aren't any "hot rodders" as you describe them in HRSR. I don't know who you are, a spectator with a box brownie perhaps. I'll tell you who race in HRSR,highly competitive, talented and entertaining drivers, completely committed to what they do.

Steve, I'm very pleased that you have joined in the discussion, although I think that maybe your response is a bit of an over reaction. Simon, is of course, a racer, too, but even if he wasn't, and was like me, the man with the proverbial 'Box Brownie', he is entitled to have an opinion without being berated in quite such a manner. Whether, or not some regard the big engined Anglias as hotrods or not, there is no doubting the commitment of their drivers, and indeed all those of the HSRS. These are not mutually exclusive statements.

Having also attended Cadwell yesterday, I am aware that this discussion has engendered some lively debate offline, as well. I merely ask that we keep this discussion constructive and interesting and not allow it to become personal.

Simply for completeness, I add a thread relevant comment from the Donington, thread:-

Originally Posted by Speedy norm

As for Steve Reeds comments I fear he has come to the forum a little late. As I see it the term "hot Rods" are referring to non FIA cars and not the type of racing seen at ovals, nor the driving standards within this form of motorsport.

[zefarelly]

the best thing to come from this thread is that virtually the whole membership of the HRSR is now signed up to Ten Tenths! welcome all.

Steve, with all due respect all historic series worth their salt run Dunlops now, and there are some far more potent machines than saloons racing hard on them. Thats not to discredit any saloon driver, far from it, but, and this is another subject entirely . . .

Why does all the heated debate re driving standards revolve around saloons and never anything else ( unless a certain BMW dealer is involved . . .allegedly !!! )

[SteveRead]

Simon, What I'm showing is not road rage, it's annoyance at your comments. Thank you for the "young man" comment, although it's not true. Please come over and watch the Anglia's at Silverstone....my wife will be driving! The only lady in HRSR and as she's American you she will have a different understanding of Hot Rod, and the uptight snobbishness of this whole FIA/ non FIA discussion.

[SteveRead]

Simon, I think I should apologise for the box brownie comment in my earlier posting. From reading your comments you're as committed to this mad sport as I am. If you want a box brownie for authenticity I'll bring one to Silverstone for you, I've probably got 20 or so. Cameras are my other passion!

[simon drabble]

no problem Steve no offence taken!
Hot ord term is most definately used as a generic term for non FIA car rather than a type cast banger racer!
Given that we have probably exhausted the arguments for and against maybe we should close the thread before I have to start having personal security at HSCC meetings?!

[Peter Mallett]

Y'know, this thread was bothering me all weekend. Then I realised that we all wanted a fat arched big engined Anglia in the sixties and early seventies (I actually achieved that paticular aim) and I realised it was because we saw them on the track so often, or reported weekly in Motoring News. They were the thing to have as a street racer (Hot Car Mag anyone?).

So I still think it's a legitimate series just a bit of a time warp, but then again who cares?

Can you really build one for £20k Zef?

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Can you really build one for £20k Zef?

on a budget Peter, on a buget . . . .. anyone got any 2nd hand piston rings ?

[RacingReturnee]

Rather than remove the modifieds from the grids would it not be better to be all-inclusive? Back in the 60's the ETC and the British ('Gp2') Series both had full grids. Personally, I think the HSCC and HRSR are missing a trick as there are enough cars out there for two races and therefore two distinct championships. To a point, I think the current HRSR front-runners need reigning back a little. I would do this as much to stop costs spiralling as for any other reason. This could be done in a number of 'period' ways, such as proving that the modifications were ran at that time - see http://www.throbnozzle-racing.co.uk/...0Merefield.htm (sic) as an example for the Anglias to follow. Further to this, I think that some big V8 cars to FIA-spec are potentially dangerous as the brakes are not too clever after 10 laps - that is as much a reason that a modified Anglia beat a Mustang at Donington a few weeks ago.

[Peter Mallett]

Welcome to our friendly forum RR.

That article is quite revealing. It suggests a three bearing "Classic" 1340cc engine bored out. The 1500GT engine was not available at that time. Howver the HRSR regs are based on 1967 App J regs and thus they can use the GT engine.

Also if we were to use the Doc's car as a basis I can see the costs of gearboxes being quite prohibitive.

[zefarelly]

THe Docs car is a great example of period club preparation, ( and a superb article to boot!) incidentally he also raced a Willment GT to FiA spec, as per my car.

PEter, you can buy a quaife dog box and buld it for less or the same than a straight cut synchro box., they're dead easy to assemble as well . . .if a little crude in design/execution

[LC driver]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

THe Docs car is a great example of period club preparation, ( and a superb article to boot!) incidentally he also raced a Willment GT to FiA spec, as per my car.

PEter, you can buy a quaife dog box and buld it for less or the same than a straight cut synchro box., they're dead easy to assemble as well . . .if a little crude in design/execution

Please Joe keep the blue one under FIA spec and homologation. Then at least two in europe will be

[gojo]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Welcome to our friendly forum RR.

That article is quite revealing. It suggests a three bearing "Classic" 1340cc engine bored out. The 1500GT engine was not available at that time. Howver the HRSR regs are based on 1967 App J regs and thus they can use the GT engine.

Also if we were to use the Doc's car as a basis I can see the costs of gearboxes being quite prohibitive.

Reading the spec of Doc's car in 62 is almost the same set up as my anglia and also neil woods that won the donnington race, and most of the other Anglias running in the hrsr.
I don't know anyone running a hewland five speed,most run three rail box with four speed quaife.
that article typifys saloon car racing in the sixtys and is the reason I race with the hrsr/hscc.
I think you will find that most cars on the grid don't run with trick suspention even the one's at the front.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by LC driver

Please Joe keep the blue one under FIA spec and homologation. Then at least two in europe will be

fear not, I will, actually I think theres another in Scandinavia, so there may be three of us !!!

Its possible that Docs car was used as a base for the Anglia to be homologated, classic struts and discs (also cortina) gave the stopping power, 5 1/2J rims, only the engine went back to 1200 with 1500gt carb, my reasoning for saying that is that Willment, Spike Winters and Jeff Uren must have homologated the Fords ( anglia, Zodiac and Cortina GT) and obviously built Docs car and It was nearly all parts bin stuff.(gearbox maybe not!)

although its very similar Jo ( assuming you still have the Anglia) there are some fundamental differences, not from your car, but some other cars, 4 pot ally callipers ? compression struts? 5 linked slipper springs on the rear end ? rear discs ? down draught heads ( not new in period, see FJ, but another step further) bigger carbs, 45's, even 48's for some, and DD does free up the head for exhaust manifolds, help cool inlet charge etc.

Not digging at you Jo/Neil but I can only really comment on Fords as I know a bit about them, god knows what goes on under Jags, Alfas ( we have an idea) and electric oil/water pumped screaming minis etc.

Its not easy now, and it will only get harder, but defining period prep accurately is difficult because people are dissapearing faster than 4* leaded petrol pumps, and even some original antique preparers and drivers get confused these days which is probably one reason why different series go off in different directions?

[RacingReturnee]

I think the current Quaife gearsets are a reasonable facsimile of what could have been available in the 60's so I would not be arguing against them being period. Also, to throw another thing into the pot, given the ages of these cars and the increasing rarity of steel panels I see no reason why fibreglass front wings cannot be used in order to keep costs down. A minimum weight is a minimum weight so what is the issue? What say the HRSR racers?

[zefarelly]

I agree re gearboxes, and everyone uses them accross the board, also they're the only thing available and all the original stuff is knackered beyond use. a straight cut box doesn't make any difference performance wise, just reliability, dog boxes are another thing however. I think everyones agreed on the same number of gears ar production also.

I disagree re panels, plastic was new and used in period by club racers, but only really bonnet and boot lids, most of the succesful cars where monocoque in construction so plastic wings is a recipe for disaster, chassis flex ? however, thats assuming you have a bolt in cage and original spec shell. go with a plastic skinned car stich welded chassis members and a multi point weld in cage, strut brace etc etc and you've strayed from the cars design . . .its finding the right compromise. to my mind if you alter the basic construction of the car then its not the car it pupports to be.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

THe Docs car is a great example of period club preparation, ( and a superb article to boot!) incidentally he also raced a Willment GT to FiA spec, as per my car.

PEter, you can buy a quaife dog box and buld it for less or the same than a straight cut synchro box., they're dead easy to assemble as well . . .if a little crude in design/execution

Doc Merfield later drove the Fraud Cortina - a Mk I with a 4.7 Ford V8. Special saloons evolved at club level in the late 50s/early 60s where club racers prepared a saloon car for local club racing - not the Grand Prix, Gold Cup, International Trophy support race saloon events. These probably started life as 1000cc Anglias or 850cc Minis along with Morris Minors, A35s, Zephyrs and Riley 1.5s. They developed into 1500 Anglias and 1300 Minis then into 1800 Twincam Anglias and 1480 Minis. By 1964/65 the wilder cars such as the Fraud Cortina then Jag engined Anglias were devised to be competitive with the 'International' support race Mustangs and Falcons which began to filter down from the top series to club level. Super Saloons and then Thunder Saloons were the next evolution. Wilment cars often raced in club events and Superspeed prepared both International spec cars (FIA, though not known as that then) and Club spec cars.