Halon Extinguishers

[Tim Falce]

I don't seem to be able to find anything definitive on this so maybe someone here can help. Can you still use a Halon extinguisher in a car? The car in question hasn't been raced for quite a while and has an old Halon one fitted, last use by date or service date is 2003.

[GT3]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

I don't seem to be able to find anything definitive on this so maybe someone here can help. Can you still use a Halon extinguisher in a car? The car in question hasn't been raced for quite a while and has an old Halon one fitted, last use by date or service date is 2003.

According to this website, http://www.fireextinguisherguide.co....extinguishers/ Halon is now illegal in the UK!

[DaveW]

Everybodies favourite read, the MSA Blue Book, details everything you need to know under section K3, including the permitted extinguishants. In short...Halon NO!!!!

[Richy_Rich]

It's a shame because that stuff works really well at putting out fires with zero mess, it used to be standard for computer rooms to be fitted with halon systems. The only downside was that, in the event of a fire, if you got trapped in the room you'd die.

It's probably better than that AFF stuff we get now days. I see the military and the channel tunnel are still allowed to use it...

[Happy Snapper]

Originally Posted by Richy_Rich

It's a shame because that stuff works really well at putting out fires with zero mess, it used to be standard for computer rooms to be fitted with halon systems. The only downside was that, in the event of a fire, if you got trapped in the room you'd die.

It's probably better than that AFF stuff we get now days. I see the military and the channel tunnel are still allowed to use it...

The big problem with Halon is it usually kills the fire and anyone within the aero also! We had a system on our anechoic chamber the engineers that fitted the system said if the alarms goes off run very fast!

[Richy_Rich]

Yeah, in cases where they flood entire rooms with it. Not sure how that would play out in the channel tunnel

More localised use (e.g. from a 2.5l bottle in a car) would most likely be fine (unless you let it off into your mouth).

The reason they banned it, I think, was to do with the ozone layer and melting polish ice hats.

[duke_toaster]

I'd imagine it was actually banned for several reasons, supposedly some chemicals of that group are carcinogenic (not sure about the maine one). One that's actually used as a fire extinguisher was accidentally deployed in a Russian submarine, killing 20. I wouldn't want to be in a closed cockpit racing car with Halon fire extinguishers going off - with some of these systems, supposedly you're meant to wear Scuba gear in an area once it's been deployed.

Off topic comment alert I have to type this or my brain will explode! Supposedly someone used it as a weapon in Robot Wars to stop internal combustion engines. It then got swiftly banned. I'll get back to you guys on that. EDIT : Actually it was in an American thing, and it did get swiftly banned. That before it hit our screens in the UK. Thanks for reading, you've been a wonderful audience. Don't forget to try the veal and tip your waitress. We now return you to the topic

[Tim Falce]

It's not even fitted properly so he'll have to change it for something new.

[Richy_Rich]

I thought it was relatively non-toxic hence it's use in aeroplanes and the like. I think if the air/halon ratio is greater than about 5% you need an oxygen mask but not much more than that.

I could be wrong though, it's fairly academic I guess as it's banned anyway now. I have a halon fire extinguisher somewhere too, better not use it :S

[Tim Falce]

It shouldn't be a problem getting rid of it, I'll take it into work and let them dispose of it.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Richy_Rich

I thought it was relatively non-toxic hence it's use in aeroplanes and the like. I think if the air/halon ratio is greater than about 5% you need an oxygen mask but not much more than that.

I could be wrong though, it's fairly academic I guess as it's banned anyway now. I have a halon fire extinguisher somewhere too, better not use it :S

Relatively is the key word here (but not so the products left after it has been heated/used on a fire).

It kills you in confined spaces because it is not oxygen and so does not support life, including yours. That's (one of the reasons) why it extinguishes fires. Ditto carbon dioxide.

Like most halogenated hydrocarbons, it is a powerful destroyer of the ozone layer and "greenhouse gas" and that is why most of the world has banned it, except for certain uses where its efficacy is felt to be worth the risk (and you won't have muppets just discharging it into the atmosphere when no longer required). That's why fridges/freezers etc. have to be disposed of in a controlled fashion - they used to use similar compounds as the working fluid.

Related compounds are being introduced as "non-harmful" replacements.

Even the United States is coming round to taking action at last.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

It shouldn't be a problem getting rid of it, I'll take it into work and let them dispose of it.

Originally Posted by Department of Transport

Disposal of Halon fire extinguishers.
The Environmental Protection Act 1990 prohibits the disposal of substances such as Halon in a manner likely to cause pollution of the environment or danger to human health. It also imposes a duty of care and requires that reasonable steps are taken to keep the waste safe and ensure that it is treated lawfully.

Those authorised to receive controlled waste are registered waste carriers or brokers, local authority waste collectors and waste operations with a waste management licence or a registered exemption from licensing.

You may well be charged a fee for this.

Jim

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by JimW

You may well be charged a fee for this.

Jim

Somehow I don't think so.

[Richy_Rich]

Originally Posted by JimW

It kills you in confined spaces because it is not oxygen and so does not support life, including yours. That's (one of the reasons) why it extinguishes fires. Ditto carbon dioxide.

Right, but as you point out this isn't a special property of halon, even an inert gas like argon will kill you if it's all you have to breathe. There's a difference between that and, say, Chlorine which when inhaled causes hydrochloric acid to be formed in your lungs.

FWIW I've just got back from using my old halon extinguisher to practise balancing ping-pong balls in the air

[GORDON STREETER]

The guy that recharges my extinguishers for work and race keeps one in his workshop in case of fire. Although I am no expert on why they were banned (and google dosent make me an anymore of one) I have used them for years for nipping small welding fires in the bud under dashboards etc as they were the best at the job as only a small amount is needed. Not like the stuff we have to use now where I might as well pi**s on it ! Rant over !

[jerryk]

As Gordon says , if you want to put a fire out they are fantastic . They were banned in aircraft a few years ago for toxicity reasons .
If i were you Tim just keep it in the corner of the workshop it might come in handy one day.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

. . .Although I am no expert on why they were banned (and google dosent make me an anymore of one) . . .

No but it offers the opportunity to be a better-informed non-expert.

Regards

Jim

[Al Weyman]

Agree with keeping it, I have one in my workshop.

[Johan Botha]

As far as I know, they're still legal on aircraft - better performance to mass ratio than anything else. Apart from water and powder, I'm pretty sure that everything that comes out of a fire extinguisher has the potential to kill you.

As regards the environment, I fail to see how a burst of halon can be significantly worse than a fuel/plastic/rubber fire burning for a couple of seconds longer because you use a lesser extinguishant.

[bdwoody]

^^^^ very good point ..

[Richy_Rich]

Yup, that's a good point. I've used mine a few times over the years for the sort of thing Gordon described, small welding/grinding fires - as the bottle doesn't completely discharge you can just give most fires a tiny puff and they're out. No mess.

I think the environmental damage thing was the main reason for their ban, more so than the health risk.

[bdwoody]

i was told a few years ago that halon can under the corect conditions , ie excess heat can or will turn to phosgene gas which is mustard gas as used as a chemical weapon in wars gone by !!

[Richy_Rich]

It's carbon tetrachloride that does that, they used to use it in extinguishers a very long time ago (like WWI days - around the same time they used Mustard gas - I wonder if there's a link there?).

I think, technically Halon _could_ create phosgene gas under extreme circumstances (very high heat and pressure) but it basically doesn't outside of the lab. Hence it's use as an extinguishant (and the banning of carbon tetrachloride long ago).

Halon was banned simply and only because it's a chlorofluorocarbon (CFC) - like the stuff in old hairsprays and fridges. It wasn't picked out specifically for any reason. CFCs were all 'banned'.

According to Wikipedia, the Motreal Protocol set out to gradually reduce the use of all CFCs to protect the polish ice hats in order that we can continue enjoying films about penguins sliding down them on their tummies.

They made a few exemptions, Halon being one because it really was rather good at putting out fires. But even Halon use should be reduced to zero by 2010 (i.e. now)

"There is a slower phase-out (to zero by 2010) of other substances (halon 1211, 1301, 2402; CFCs 13, 111, 112, etc)"

The FIA/MSA/etc probably had no choice but to ban it. I don't actually know how popular it was on cars, I only started racing 10 years ago and it was all AFF then as far as I can remember. I do vaguely remember threads on here with people moaning that the new extinguishers were crap and what were previously small fires that the on-board system would have put out were now destroying cars, but I don't know if that was just grumbling or fact.

I'm not a climate scientist, so I can't and wouldn't make any guesses as to the effect of banning CFCs, I guess we'll just have to trust that the boffins know what they're doing...

[pixie2308]

Sorry a bit geeky here...
Halon Fire Extinguishers

Halon Fire Extinguisher Ban
The ban on Halon fire extinguishers was implemented following the Montreal Protocol of 1987 and subsequent extension at Kyoto a decade later. The details are in EC Regulation 3093/94 and EC 2037/2000 and the UK Hazardous Waste regulations 2005
Exceptions to the Rule
The EU ban on the use of Halon in fire extinguishers actually came into force in October 2000 and was implemented in the UK in 2003, as a result of scientific research linking Halon and other CFC’s to Ozone depletion. The ban in practice is not total.
Existing owners and users of Halon 1211 portable fire extinguishers may be able to claim exemption to the EU ban for certain "Critical Uses".
Broadly speaking this includes limited applications within the aircraft industry, military / armed forces, petrochemical industry and some specific marine applications. Refilling of existing Halon systems covered by these exemptions should also be from recycled Halon stocks. Halon 1301 is the version preferred in fixed fire suppression systems and its current use is also tightly controlled although it is installed in the Channel Tunnel. The exemption can also extend to applications that can be justified on the basis of National security.
Safe Disposal
Not only is it illegal to own a Halon fire extinguisher not covered by these exemptions it is also illegal to simply dump them or discharge the contents. Fire and Safety Centre Maintenance Services can arrange collection and safe disposal for a small charge or you can contact your Local Council Waste Management department for advice.
Identification
Older Halon extinguishers are normally colour coded British Racing Green so are easy to spot but variants on this colour are out there. The military use dark bottle green as you might expect and yellow and gold also turn up. They are now also supplied red with a green colour flash. You are most likely to come across a Green Halon fire extinguisher in an Aircraft where they are still permitted in the absence of an approved replacement.
--------------------------------------

Yes, Halon is best for its purpose but Montreal Protocal deemed them to be eliminated.
It may be possible to get exemption to continue to use them but the paperwork is an absolute nightmare and then they say no!!
Getting rid is now more complicated than it was as you could vent them to atmosphere ... that too is now illegal.
Geeky bit over ...

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Richy_Rich

The FIA/MSA/etc probably had no choice but to ban it. I don't actually know how popular it was on cars, I only started racing 10 years ago and it was all AFF then as far as I can remember. I do vaguely remember threads on here with people moaning that the new extinguishers were crap and what were previously small fires that the on-board system would have put out were now destroying cars, but I don't know if that was just grumbling or fact.

I had a very bad experience with an underbonnet fire and if it hadnt been for a quick thinking mate in the next workshop I would have lost my car.
We had a thread on this very subject 2 or 3 years ago and most of us agreed that AFF is nowhere near as good.
As I said at the time anyone would think we are setting them off everyday !