[WEC] Kolles Prototype

[Deleted]

Has the team given up on PR already? Even though otherwise extremely silent as usual, at least after Silverstone they issued a formal press release on bykolles.at and there were quotes explaining issues they were having... after Spa there's been nothing. Even on twitter the drivers seemed to just shrugged their shoulders.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

It was a Lotus through sticker engineering. And it was a factory backed P2, which was a bit questionable. And then it was something in between and nobody really knew what it was.

Does Lotus, or one of their subsidiaries giving Kolles money for putting stickers on car and title on top of garage equal 'factory backing'? If that was the case wouldn't Alpine giving Signatech money for same thing (as well as bribing ACO for re-homologating Oreca 03 as something different when it's obviously not) qualify for the same? And the other rebranding names in P2...

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by Chiana

(as well as bribing ACO for re-homologating Oreca 03 as something different when it's obviously not)

Bribery in sport (and in general) is a serious matter. Has this action by Signatech been alleged elsewhere? Any references you can point me at?

Mariantic

[Deleted]

It was a (bad) figure of speech, sorry. But when someone has power enough to have the organizing body allow chassis to be completely renamed to something it's not - particularly when 100% identical chassis sitting next in line still bears the old name - it's just wrong. And it's different to fake Morgans and whatever since those cars haven't actually been rehomologated after those names as the "Alpine" Oreca-Courage is.

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by Chiana

It was a (bad) figure of speech, sorry. But when someone has power enough to have the organizing body allow chassis to be completely renamed to something it's not - particularly when 100% identical chassis sitting next in line still bears the old name - it's just wrong. And it's different to fake Morgans and whatever since those cars haven't actually been rehomologated after those names as the "Alpine" Oreca-Courage is.

I agree with you with this. Is not the same rename a car "as is" than take a car and heavily develop it before rename it (as Rebellion with the Lola).

In ByKolles case, I think we can't call it a Lotus P2 (Kodewa build by Adess), since several parts has been changed.

There is a narrow line between who design and build, and who pay the bill. Which one is the real owner?

[ss_collins]

The chassis is the deciding factor. It is a copy of the Adess designed Lotus T128. It is therefore a Lotus LMP or at a stretch an Adess.

Rebellion kolas were still Lolas, so were the Aston Martin Lolas.

I totally disagree with the 'Morgan' and 'Alpine' branded cars, which is why I will always refer to them as what they are. A Pescarolo and an ORECA-Courage.

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I totally disagree with the 'Morgan' and 'Alpine' branded cars, which is why I will always refer to them as what they are. A Pescarolo and an ORECA-Courage.

I see where you are all coming from on this, but what of the "real" world?

In the UK the entire Opel range are branded as Vauxhall. Which is "right"?

I run a Chevrolet Aveo which is a Chevrolet Sonic in the Americas and a Holden Barina in Oz. Again which is right? Especially as mine was built by Daewoo in Korea!

Mariantic
(a lover of variety in all things)

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by mariantic

I see where you are all coming from on this, but what of the "real" world?

In the UK the entire Opel range are branded as Vauxhall. Which is "right"?

Is that really a relevant comparison given they are part of the same company? There are thousands of examples of that out there with companies in different territories.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by mariantic

I see where you are all coming from on this, but what of the "real" world?

In the UK the entire Opel range are branded as Vauxhall. Which is "right"?

I run a Chevrolet Aveo which is a Chevrolet Sonic in the Americas and a Holden Barina in Oz. Again which is right? Especially as mine was built by Daewoo in Korea!

Mariantic
(a lover of variety in all things)

Actually, the Aveo and Sonic are different cars.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I totally disagree with the 'Morgan' and 'Alpine' branded cars, which is why I will always refer to them as what they are. A Pescarolo and an ORECA-Courage.

Right on!

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Actually, the Aveo and Sonic are different cars.

Indeed you are correct - in the USA.

Getting a bit off topic here but the Aveo was replaced by the Sonic in the USA.

In the UK the Aveo was replaced by a new Aveo (the one I have) - identical to the American Sonic...

Confusing isn't it?

Back to topic - should we use the upper-case ByKOLLES convention because their website and publications do? - I do on my site, but it always feels a bit odd

Mariantic

[Damian Baldi]

I been looking the upgrades of the car at several pictures of Spa. If you search at google you could see the new front with two different fender's inside parts. But the biggest change into the weekend is at the back. The first engine's cover they used was the old one with short rear fenders. Then they switched to a new one with longer rear fenders and a BIG air inlet for the engine just at the top of the cockpit. You can see this new engine's cover in black in the practice, but it was painted for the race.

short rear fenders and small air inlet over the engine


long rear fenders and big air inlet over the cockpit


car at qualy/practice. Note the windscreen black too.

[Deleted]

Do we think that the good straight line speed (atm the only convincing thing on this) is strictly down to AER or does the actual chassis have some redeeming quality to help in this aspect too? Just wondering cause if it's strictly down to the engine, then the Rebellions should be right at it too. And Kolles would have lost the only upside they had against the R-One Oreca last season.

The max speed charts after LM will be intriguing. And especially how the figures spike up in reflection to previous years.

[carbon_titanium]

in all of his versions, the kolles car always had a good top speed. To me the reason is simple: a lot of power from the AER + close to 0 downforce produced by the car

[Damian Baldi]

That's a good point. Rebellion's car (as Kolle's car too) had to be modified to receive a turbo engine with all the auxiliary parts as intercoolers and a different air inlet for the engine. So, both cars had to adapt to the changes as better as they could.

I wrote at the Rebellion's thread about a time's comparision from Spa 2014/2015. It would be good to add more data as final speed.

[templer]

Originally Posted by Damian Baldi

I been looking the upgrades of the car at several pictures of Spa. If you search at google you could see the new front with two different fender's inside parts. But the biggest change into the weekend is at the back. The first engine's cover they used was the old one with short rear fenders. Then they switched to a new one with longer rear fenders and a BIG air inlet for the engine just at the top of the cockpit. You can see this new engine's cover in black in the practice, but it was painted for the race.

short rear fenders and small air inlet over the engine


long rear fenders and big air inlet over the cockpit


car at qualy/practice. Note the windscreen black too.

The front fenders seems to have add-on panels of carbon fibre on the inner side. Don't know for what. The revised front and rear fenders have the same target - reducing drag. The rear wing is also lower and the car features a kind of turning vane at the front fenders ( the black triagular parts at the bottom of the front fenders ) which should reduce the wake around the fenders similar to the vanes used on trucks. So all modifications are for lower drag which is curious as the car needs more downforce not less drag.
The scoop for the engine is the same, but two larger scoops have been added on the engine cover maybe for gearbox cooling.
What I don't know is the sense of the very large blisters on the new rear cover as the team run also the old rear cover with more, but much smaller and lower blisters so they can't be necessary to cover gearbox, engine or suspension parts.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

in all of his versions, the kolles car always had a good top speed. To me the reason is simple: a lot of power from the AER + close to 0 downforce produced by the car

Yes the Kodewa-Adess-Praga-Kolles-"Lotus" P2 cars were almost always on top of speed charts. But that version clearly had more DF than this thing has ever had, and Judd instead of AER. So it doesn't necessarily solve the riddle.

However I too am starting to row towards both factors making up the speeds, and for that reason the difference to LMP2s in LM qualifying should be back to several seconds again. Because if there is one track optimized for such combo, it's LM. Maybe even Rebellion would take notice. But I also predict that CLM will be dragged back to garage for retirement before sun sets on saturday.

They better have more spare parts ready. If only to make them look better.

[carbon_titanium]

actually is pretty useless to reach 350km/h on mulsanne when a car is slower than a gtpro through porsche sector... (need to make copy and paste of this sentence for the nissan topic ).
2012 LM is the perfect example: ts030 able to hit 330km/h on mulsanne, with both R18 e-tron barely able to reach 320km/h... audi was faster in the porsche sector and got the pole showing to be the best car in grid.

Sincerly, I don't know if r-one received aero updates during the winter; but however should be able to be considerably faster than the CLM... AER reliability is a giant ? also for them. Anyway I predict that CLM will endure 3 or 4 hours before to retire... or maybe won't start at all the race if the kolles will receive some "special visit" during the week as happened 2 years ago

[BTCC 318d]

It's a pity, if you take Kolles out of the equation, there's no reason to give this team anything other than full support.

The cold reality is that 1 single car effort with dubious funding can't out develop Oreca, Onroak, or Gibson with multiple customer efforts - especially starting from such a bail as the "Lotus" that never really got going.

Re. the Alpine etc, personally I'm not upset by the branding. I have an Audi RS4 (which is just an A4 with a bit of tweekery). You can buy the same shell as a Skoda Superb, or a VW Bora. Meanwhile, the Golf / A3 / that SEAT I forget the name of, and the Skoda Superb are the same car. This sin't platform sharing, it's the same bloody car. Onroak could call the next chassis Derek if they like, I'll still love em just for turning up and being quick =)
I understand that the Deltawing used an AMR-One tub. Should the Deltawing have been called an Aston Martin, or a Lola?

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by BTCC 318d

It's a pity, if you take Kolles out of the equation, there's no reason to give this team anything other than full support.

The cold reality is that 1 single car effort with dubious funding can't out develop Oreca, Onroak, or Gibson with multiple customer efforts - especially starting from such a bail as the "Lotus" that never really got going.

Re. the Alpine etc, personally I'm not upset by the branding. I have an Audi RS4 (which is just an A4 with a bit of tweekery). You can buy the same shell as a Skoda Superb, or a VW Bora. Meanwhile, the Golf / A3 / that SEAT I forget the name of, and the Skoda Superb are the same car. This sin't platform sharing, it's the same bloody car. Onroak could call the next chassis Derek if they like, I'll still love em just for turning up and being quick =)
I understand that the Deltawing used an AMR-One tub. Should the Deltawing have been called an Aston Martin, or a Lola?

I guess that highcroft racing and pescarolo paid IP rights to aston martin to rename the cars delta wing and pescarolo 03.
Such a great legacy that...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

actually is pretty useless to reach 350km/h on mulsanne when a car is slower than a gtpro through porsche sector... (need to make copy and paste of this sentence for the nissan topic ).
2012 LM is the perfect example: ts030 able to hit 330km/h on mulsanne, with both R18 e-tron barely able to reach 320km/h... audi was faster in the porsche sector and got the pole showing to be the best car in grid.

Sincerly, I don't know if r-one received aero updates during the winter; but however should be able to be considerably faster than the CLM... AER reliability is a giant ? also for them. Anyway I predict that CLM will endure 3 or 4 hours before to retire... or maybe won't start at all the race if the kolles will receive some "special visit" during the week as happened 2 years ago

If they could do a 2:06 at Spa qualifying, that shows the car has some kinda pace in it. No race matters near as much as Le Mans. So would you focus on lower drag or more downforce? I think that answer is obvious. Maybe Spa was treated more as a (shortened) test session for the new parts? One thing is clear to me, its the best looking lmp1 on the grid right now.

[templer]

Originally Posted by TF110

If they could do a 2:06 at Spa qualifying, that shows the car has some kinda pace in it. No race matters near as much as Le Mans. So would you focus on lower drag or more downforce? I think that answer is obvious. Maybe Spa was treated more as a (shortened) test session for the new parts? One thing is clear to me, its the best looking lmp1 on the grid right now.

Of course you need less drag at Le Mans and the car showed a better pace at Spa but do you really think ByKolles will run 24 hours and finish. I not.
They want to beat Rebellion so why should I concentrate on one single race where my reliability record gave me no chance. I would concentrate on the other WEC races and design a package with more downforce. Have you seen how the car took the slowlier curves at Spa. The car understeered massively and was forced to took a much wider line compared to its rivals.
Rebellion will be better this year, ByKolles only want it but did not prove it. Sorry I like the car and the team but they went into the wrong direction

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by templer

Of course you need less drag at Le Mans and the car showed a better pace at Spa but do you really think ByKolles will run 24 hours and finish. I not.
They want to beat Rebellion so why should I concentrate on one single race where my reliability record gave me no chance. I would concentrate on the other WEC races and design a package with more downforce. Have you seen how the car took the slowlier curves at Spa. The car understeered massively and was forced to took a much wider line compared to its rivals.
Rebellion will be better this year, ByKolles only want it but did not prove it. Sorry I like the car and the team but they went into the wrong direction

Yeah, I think the most difficult for this team is to finish. But Rebellion was a mess at Spa last year, and this year they are arriving to LM without practice. Their cars has been very modified to fit the AER engine, so I think it will be a race between these two teams about reliability. Rebellion still have an advantage while having two cars.

[Ginaro Zukovsky]

Originally Posted by templer

Have you seen how the car took the slowlier curves at Spa. The car understeered massively and was forced to took a much wider line compared to its rivals.

Indeed, looking at the qualifying sector times they were 1.9s behind the fastest P2 in sector 2!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by templer

Of course you need less drag at Le Mans and the car showed a better pace at Spa but do you really think ByKolles will run 24 hours and finish. I not.
They want to beat Rebellion so why should I concentrate on one single race where my reliability record gave me no chance. I would concentrate on the other WEC races and design a package with more downforce. Have you seen how the car took the slowlier curves at Spa. The car understeered massively and was forced to took a much wider line compared to its rivals.
Rebellion will be better this year, ByKolles only want it but did not prove it. Sorry I like the car and the team but they went into the wrong direction

What wrong direction is that? Youre talking about aero, that is part of the whole package. Theyre not solely focusing on low drag but forgetting about reliability. If they finish ahead of Rebellion at Le Mans, thats double points. No one knows if Rebellion will last in the wec races either.

[kurski]

ByKolles announce Le Mans driver lineup with Tiago Monteiro.