[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bobec

I guess I should again start watching the Toyota LMP1 show while it lasts, because things can get a lot worse.

And that all-electric onboard lap posted several days ago - I mean wow, I would get more excitement from driving a go-kart. I understand it't the Bugatti circuit, but still. Who prefers FE over F1?

I prefer FE over F1. Although I also prefer WEC, IMSA, Blancpain, VLN, BTCC, ELMS and a lot more over FE.

F1 brings almost nothing to the table. FE is at least different. Not particularly great, but entertaining at times.

[ApexTurtle]

I view FE as glorified karting races with some pretty decent talent. Then it's pretty fun

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

I view FE as glorified karting races with some pretty decent talent. Then it's pretty fun

I personally like it because it's different. I don't take it seriously, but the tracks can be fun and different. I prefer watching FE over F1 at Barcelona or Shanghai, put it that way. It's just different.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I prefer FE over F1. Although I also prefer WEC, IMSA, Blancpain, VLN, BTCC, ELMS and a lot more over FE.

F1 brings almost nothing to the table. FE is at least different. Not particularly great, but entertaining at times.

Well, it seems you just don't care much for F1. that's why. But let me tell you this - they still have unique car designs, and I would never enjoy a spec series over it. Also they have some pretty solid plans for the future, namely a pretty balanced combination between aero and ground effects. I just really hope the WEC doesn't become a BoP-ed spec series, or at least not LM. I also wouldn't be able to enjoy all-electric prototypes. I think it would really be the end of racing for me when you combine all those.

[chernaudi]

I'm kinda copying and pasting this from another forum I post on because, thinking about it, my discussion with someone else on the matter does bring up maybe a valid point.

"If that's the case (having production hyper cars in LMP1), why even call the cars prototypes? I just think that the ACO are desperate for factory team money in the top class, and they're not being very caring how they get it as long as they get it. IMO, that kind of amorality may kill the class before it even gets off the ground.

And if LMP1s are due to get slowed to 3:30 around Le Mans, then LMP2 as a knock on will probably be slowed to 3:45 around LM. 3:45 is already borderline GTE speeds.

So I have to ask this? If the ACO want modified production based hypercars in LMP1, why not just take GTE pro, give them carbon brakes, 700-800hp, and more aggressive aero?"

One, is that what the ACO wants? Two, is that what the ACO may end up with? And three, is that what the teams and us fans want?

I know that us fans often don't like change, but it's guaranteed in life, just like death and taxes. We still don't have to agree with it, however.

I do feel like from my POV maybe quoting some lyrics from the song "Take a Hint" that was featured on an episode of Victorious back in the day. I know that quoting song lyrics from a song featured on an old-ish, kinda girly, family friendly teen sitcom is probably nightmare fuel for some on here, but, so too it seems, are these LMP1 proposals.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

"If that's the case (having production hyper cars in LMP1), why even call the cars prototypes? I just think that the ACO are desperate for factory team money in the top class, and they're not being very caring how they get it as long as they get it. IMO, that kind of amorality may kill the class before it even gets off the ground.

And if LMP1s are due to get slowed to 3:30 around Le Mans, then LMP2 as a knock on will probably be slowed to 3:45 around LM. 3:45 is already borderline GTE speeds.

So I have to ask this? If the ACO want modified production based hypercars in LMP1, why not just take GTE pro, give them carbon brakes, 700-800hp, and more aggressive aero?

Even that would feel a lot more organic. If it comes to that, I say have the two GTE classes (PRO and AM) and have the manufacturers from the suped up GTE class fight the privateers from LMP2 for the win. Might as well.

[ApexTurtle]

The current privateer cars will have to be massively slowed down too. I wonder how they will do that.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by ApexTurtle

The current privateer cars will have to be massively slowed down too. I wonder how they will do that.

I think horsepower reductions would be the easiest way. I wonder how much the GTEs can get sped up. Can they make a new GT1 class out of them? Give them really good tires too.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by bobec

I say have the two GTE classes (PRO and AM) and have the manufacturers from the suped up GTE class fight the privateers from LMP2 for the win. Might as well.

Realistically, how many GTE cars are availabe? I am talking about privateer svailabe? Maybe things would change if that class moved up the marquee, but as it is only Porsche and Ferrari are available (I believe), and Ford is going away. As things are, there is not a lot to base things on, is there?

[bobec]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Realistically, how many GTE cars are availabe? I am talking about privateer svailabe? Maybe things would change if that class moved up the marquee, but as it is only Porsche and Ferrari are available (I believe), and Ford is going away. As things are, there is not a lot to base things on, is there?

None of this is realistic, it's just thinking out loud. I believe Aston Martin is also available for the privateers, while Ford and BMW are factory efforts. The GTE classes have their own problems. It would require some work to get more teams and hopefully more manufacturers (and offerings for AM).

My thinking was to have a separate, third class based on GTE cars where they would be a lot faster, and manufacturers can come in and compete for the overall win using cars based on their road cars, sort of like LMGT1. They get to spend their money, but they are bound by the regulations in what they can have or not have on the car (but no spec parts) . It should still be a lot cheaper than LMP1-H.

Competing against them would be private, independent teams who will have freer regulations and be able to develop prototypes similar to LMP2 in performance (which will still be regulated to ensure they don't become impossibly fast for the other, GTE-based class). This class won't be open to manufacturers with big money. Obviously something would have to be decided about the engine.

I suppose this is very much influenced by an idea Mosley had a few years ago for controlling costs in F1 - choose a cost cap and operate within freer technical regulations, or spend all you want but work within stricter technical limits. I think this concept has no place in F1 as there are no separate classes there, but maybe it could work here if you balance everything right. Manufacturers won't have to spend those crazy budgets anymore, and will be able to focus on cars that will resemble their production cars. Privateers will have the chance to fight for the win because of the greater technical opportunities (which may actually necessitate some sort of R&D cap because this may work only if they do have smaller budgets).

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by bobec

I think horsepower reductions would be the easiest way..

Massive, absurd, Group C phase out levels of ballast first make more sense. As they are they're less powerful than the new cars will be and weigh some 300kg+ less.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Production Requirement that 20 cars be built within 2 years of car's race debut... what happens if 20 cars are not built? Retroactive Disqualification?

Oh I almost forgot about this. This is almost exactly the rule that killed GT1 the first time. Prior to the '97 season you had to properly sell at least one car beforehand. The CLK-GTR didn't even have a prototype road car for most of its racing career, a fact that angered BMW enough for them to leave FIA GT and switch to LMP. The full minimum production wasn't finished until after both the category and championship ceased to exist. I'm not sure if the CLK-LM and Bitter (the Lotus with the Viper V10) were ever actually legal in the end...

[rich07]

I think legalities were the least of the Bitters problems lol ‘‘twas a good idea putting a Viper motor in a Lotus Elise GT1 chassis. Well good in theory..

[Mike E]

The speculation in this thread is wild.

I just hope calm heads prevail and we don't end up with a rule set that caters to the very short term whims and wishes of a small group of manufacturers who will disappear as soon as their 'activation' (puke) activities are complete.

And please don't shaft the privateers again.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Mike E

The speculation in this thread is wild.

I just hope calm heads prevail and we don't end up with a rule set that caters to the very short term whims and wishes of a small group of manufacturers who will disappear as soon as their 'activation' (puke) activities are complete.

And please don't shaft the privateers again.

I feel they have in a way turned away some very important manufacturers (some who used to compete, others potential), and they have also been shafting the privateers, as you say. So I think they no longer have many options. They will take whatever is available and hence will agree to what is demanded of them. That for me is the most likely scenario. Chances are, anything else will really hurt for the short run.

[chernaudi]

IMO, that's been the problem with the ACO for about the past decade, they've thought only of the short term. LMP900 lasted for 6 years, first gen LMP1 for 5 years. You don't get much stability IMO if you keep trying to change the rules every 3 years or so, which is how IMO this mess kinda started as well as the ACO just being overly ambitious.

[pablocomics]

Dauer built about 13-15 cars, they just need 12 more and we could see a second victory for the Dauer 962..... That was a supercar.


Back to the future IV. Ok, it was silly, but someone could do it with a LMP2 chassis with the current new-new-new today's rules

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by bobec

Well, it seems you just don't care much for F1. that's why. But let me tell you this - they still have unique car designs, and I would never enjoy a spec series over it. Also they have some pretty solid plans for the future, namely a pretty balanced combination between aero and ground effects. I just really hope the WEC doesn't become a BoP-ed spec series, or at least not LM. I also wouldn't be able to enjoy all-electric prototypes. I think it would really be the end of racing for me when you combine all those.

Spent 20 years watch it. I care for it plenty, but in terms of entertainment, I rank it pretty low.

[joeb]

Ford is considering outfitting the GT GTE to fit in the hypercar regs

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1...-entry-with-gt

[deggis]

Originally Posted by joeb

Ford is considering outfitting the GT GTE to fit in the hypercar regs

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1...-entry-with-gt

Finally, the right class for the car.

[deggis]

Some interesting commets from Vasselon:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/n...otype-hypercar

Toyota technical director Pascal Vasselon is unhappy about BoP and the “expensive” route that the WEC has taken

[Akrapovic]

One of the arguments for BoP is it keeps costs down. If you have high budgets and BoP, then you're removing one of the major advantages of having BoP.

[Deleted]

“It is absolutely not what we are looking for, it's very sad that Le Mans, in the end, will be won on Balance of Performance but it looks like a condition at the moment to [attract] competitors.”

YES.

YES.

YES.

I applaud him for being honest, I salute Toyota.

Anyway 2021-2024 are already lost, but it's only six years until LM 2025 when all of this nonsensical garbage should (hopefully) be washed away... when you think about it that way, it's only long away as 2013 is. And before that we still have 2020 and 2021 to comfort us even a little bit

[bobec]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

IMO, that's been the problem with the ACO for about the past decade, they've thought only of the short term. LMP900 lasted for 6 years, first gen LMP1 for 5 years. You don't get much stability IMO if you keep trying to change the rules every 3 years or so, which is how IMO this mess kinda started as well as the ACO just being overly ambitious.

I also really hated the constant tweaking of EoT on a race by race basis. In my crazy dream of LMGT1 vs LMP2, there will be none of that. The two concepts would be carefully prepared before implemented and only potential performance would be balanced, not the actual performance that teams develop, so as not to punish those who do well in development.

But in the real world, I think will be the best (at least for the sake of LM's reputation) if the ACO would drop all the silly ideas and bite the bullet. Let it sting, but keep it real, instead of trying to hold on to what they used to have at all costs. They need to go through a catharsis.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Spent 20 years watch it. I care for it plenty, but in terms of entertainment, I rank it pretty low.

Well I don't blame you. 20 years ago and several after was one of the golden eras of F1. I didn't have the chance to watch it, but I have seen recording of a lot of those races, and I liked it better than following the current season (that's mostly 2008-2013).

But I still think they are doing better now, as of the past few years at least. And I think they are on to something with the India concept they are planning to implement in 2021. I've been commenting (though not here, as I'm not very active in the F1 forums at this site) since 2013 that they absolutely should bring back ground effects.

FE is whatever to me. Like you and others have said, it's OK to watch, but you shouldn't be taking it too seriously. Maybe it would be good entertainment if you catch a glimpse.

But I believe both LM (and supporting series) and F1 are very serious, and shouldn't be just entertainment. It's where the best of the best come and race hard. It's where we see insane tech development. For some reason, while hybrid is fine, I don't think full electric would do it for me. Maybe because there is also this aspect of keeping a connection with the historical roots of the series.