Towing Trailers and the Tacho Law

[Scooby 96]

back to original topic:-
I know this subject has been aired in the past but it looks now that ANY van or Pick-up and trailer with overall weight of 3500kg needs a Tacho. Am awaiting confirmation from VOSA if this applies to 'Private ' vehicles' or just Company vans and Pick-ups. Any ideas............?

Just been confirmed by VOSA that for Private use there is no problem.
But either Sponsors names on race car or van could constitute 'commercial use' and that would need a Tacho if over 3,500kg. (Prize money could also be deemed commercial - if only.) Also for vans they suggested the good old 'Not for Hire or Reward' on the passenger door would be helpful.

[volvo27]

As an operator of HGV's who these days have to spend at lot of time making sure we are staying compliant with the many regs. in transport I cannot see where HGV's being used as 'not for hire or reward' are going to be any less dangerous than those operated by professionals. To that end I believe that all HGV's and van with trailers should be driven by qualified drivers and be fitted and subject to Tacho regs.. If one of these private hgv combinations is involved in a serious accident the authorities will look at this grey area very carefully and if the driver cannot prove his working and driving hours it could be the end of this loophole in the law

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by volvo27

As an operator of HGV's who these days have to spend at lot of time making sure we are staying compliant with the many regs. in transport I cannot see where HGV's being used as 'not for hire or reward' are going to be any less dangerous than those operated by professionals. To that end I believe that all HGV's and van with trailers should be driven by qualified drivers and be fitted and subject to Tacho regs.. If one of these private hgv combinations is involved in a serious accident the authorities will look at this grey area very carefully and if the driver cannot prove his working and driving hours it could be the end of this loophole in the law

I was under the impression that even though they are taxed as private HGVs they still need a tacho and you still need an LGV licence to drive them.
I think the commercial 4X4 fitted with tachos stems back from the guy who fell asleep in his Land Rover-trailer combo and wiped out a couple of trains and killed 10 people.

[p261brm]

A point, the problem as I understand it is gross train weight, not what it is carrying, but what vehicle plus trailer can weigh in total, also check your insurance! fell foul of that one, under hazardous materials carried two jerry cans of fuel, insurance company not informed of said hazardous goods, no insurance!

[Al Weyman]

Bloody hell so now we have to worry about carrying fuel in proper sealed containers, when will it all end? I would say every racer on here is guilty of that one and all the police would have to do is nick every one of us as we pulled into the circuit.

[eamonn ledwidge]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

I was under the impression that even though they are taxed as private HGVs they still need a tacho and you still need an LGV licence to drive them.

A private use owner of a vehicle under 7.5 tonnes, can apply for tachograph exemption by completing the appropriate form and presenting it at the time of the test. This is acceptable for use on these islands, but tacho needed for Europe.

[nyssa7]

So to recap:

I drive a double cab pickup which weighs 3.5 tons in itself and the trailer and race car runs to best part of another 2 tons. All privately owned by me

But regularly carry the race fuel in the 25 litre drums it gets delivered in

So can I carry on as before or should I just turn myself in and prepare for a long stretch at HM pleasure

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Bloody hell so now we have to worry about carrying fuel in proper sealed containers, when will it all end? I would say every racer on here is guilty of that one and all the police would have to do is nick every one of us as we pulled into the circuit.

But this isn't new, I did an ADR course and exam 20+ years ago and the amounts of certain stuff you can carry with out the proper licence or vehicle is sometimes minuscule.

Originally Posted by nyssa7

So to recap:

I drive a double cab pickup which weighs 3.5 tons in itself and the trailer and race car runs to best part of another 2 tons. All privately owned by me

But regularly carry the race fuel in the 25 litre drums it gets delivered in

So can I carry on as before or should I just turn myself in and prepare for a long stretch at HM pleasure

25 litre drums-in plural, turn yourself in now. You need to look into the correct regulations for the type of fuel you are carrying and where it can be carried and of course how much.
Just for you here

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

But this isn't new, I did an ADR course and exam 20+ years ago and the amounts of certain stuff you can carry with out the proper licence or vehicle is sometimes minuscule.

25 litre drums-in plural, turn yourself in now. You need to look into the correct regulations for the type of fuel you are carrying and where it can be carried and of course how much.
Just for you here

and the important bit from that webpage, I quote "These regulations do not affect purely private carriage. "

so carry on gentlemen, be sensible, and stop making a fuss and drawing attention to us.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Scooby 96

back to original topic:-
I know this subject has been aired in the past but it looks now that ANY van or Pick-up and trailer with overall weight of 3500kg needs a Tacho. Am awaiting confirmation from VOSA if this applies to 'Private ' vehicles' or just Company vans and Pick-ups. Any ideas............?

Just been confirmed by VOSA that for Private use there is no problem.
But either Sponsors names on race car or van could constitute 'commercial use' and that would need a Tacho if over 3,500kg. (Prize money could also be deemed commercial - if only.) Also for vans they suggested the good old 'Not for Hire or Reward' on the passenger door would be helpful.

This post seems crystal clear to me, it's a non-problem, are people worrying over nothing?

[nyssa7]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

25 litre drums-in plural, turn yourself in now. You need to look into the correct regulations for the type of fuel you are carrying and where it can be carried and of course how much.
Just for you here

Thanks for that - looks like I can carry "loads", not likely to have more than 2 (so only just plural) drums in the back of my truck as I don't do endurance racing

Had more "fun" when racing at Croix a few years back - race car tank (65 litres) was full, figured that would get me through the Friday test day but still had qualifying and race to get through on Saturday and another race on Sunday. Had 2 x 25 litre drums in the rear footwell of my Shogun, covered up by my bedding (oh the glamorous life of a club racing driving, sleeping in the truck). Guy at the Eurotunnel terminal was having a peek round the vehicle, saw one of the drums and asked if it was full. "No, of course not" so I was allowed on

But how else could I race, couldn't get the 102 Octane in France, nor at most race circuits even

[markjtaylor]

Not to do with law and weights. Others may be intersted to know this information regarding a pendulum trailer. I tow with a dodge ram pick up, laughably the engine in this being a big Hemi produces more power and torque than my race car!!. I have bought an old fully enclosed trailer with triple axles, perhaps due to location of axles or weight, not sure which it was 'all over the shop' at 50MPH. Now with a Bulldog fitted, an anti sway type of mechanism, this has stopped, we can now tow at well over 70 if we want to and it all stays in a straight line. Hopefully a usefull tip if anybody has this problem

[Tim Falce]

Mark, it sounds like you have the weight distribution in the trailer all wrong.

[Al Weyman]

Mark I have a triple axle unit which I would imagine is the same as yours as I believe Brian James are the only ones making these and it is the best trailer I have ever towed with and straight at any speed although I do not do more than the legal 60 at anytime except maybe overtaking an HGV. I tow with a Blazer S10 SUV which will be a tad lighter maybe than the pick up although heaver at the rear which may help but I have no need for any of these devices. Check one thing out I cured a mates problem the other week, with the car loaded but and hooked up check the trailer is level and not pointing up or down as this will load one axle and lighten another and is not a good situation.

[GORDON STREETER]

50 to 100 kg nose weight on the ball normally sorts towing problems out.
Whatever, you need more weight than you think.

[markjtaylor]

I have never been sure about this, Firstly, if towing a trailer, is the fast lane on a motorway 'out of bounds', unless perhaps taking some type of avoiding action etc. Also is 60 MPH the maximum speed when towing??
On a more amusing note.
Further to my earlier thread regarding my pendulum trailer, what a nightmare when I bought it, straight from 'fleabay', the trailer was in Devon some 200 odd miles away. Picked it up at dusk, located on a hill farm in the middle of nowhere, had to tow it for nearly two miles down narrow tracks before reaching public roads. What a relief we thought. THEN Fastest speed available was about 47MPH uphill, 40 MPH downhill, before the trailer tried to overtake us Arriving at my mates place at 1 in the morning, he was concerned regarding overnight security for the trailer, we are in a rural/vilage area where several pick-ups are active!!!!
I told him to unhook it and p**s off, as far as i was concerned they could have it. Fortunately it was still there the following morning.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by markjtaylor

I have never been sure about this, Firstly, if towing a trailer, is the fast lane on a motorway 'out of bounds', unless perhaps taking some type of avoiding action etc. Also is 60 MPH the maximum speed when towing??

There is no fast lane on a motorway. You are allowed in the outside lane (lane2) of a two lane motorway. You are not allowed in the outside lane of a three or more lane motorway.

The speed limit for towing trailers on a motorway, where national limit applies is 60mph. On dual carriageways it's 60mph and on single carriageway roads it's 50mph, all assuming other limits don't apply.
That is for cars towing, it all changes when you are in a heavier vehicle.

[markjtaylor]

Hi Tim

Thanks for this info, I tow with a Dodge Ram 1500 Double Cab Pick Up GVW is 3490 KG, it is not signwritten, so should be regarded as private, I hope??

Any further advice

Regards Mark

Just a thought, if I apply sign writing etc related to my building business, does it then become commercial??

[Tim Falce]

You should be OK. If it's a goods vehicle not exceeding 7500kg the limits are as I stated, if it's above 7500kg then it's 40 for single carriageways, 50 for dual and 60 for motorways

[Al Weyman]

I would have thought if its vatable its commercial sign writing or not.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I would have thought if its vatable its commercial sign writing or not.

Who mentioned VAT?

[Al Weyman]

I did, he was asking if his truck was a commercial or not, I was trying to make the point if its listed as a commercial it will have vat charged on it when its sold through a dealer.

[R59]

Regarding swaying..... I recall a Rover racer who towed with a big Volvo estate. He would load the Rover (SD1) on the trailer then set off up the bypass. If it started to snake, he'd stop in a layby, move the Rover forwards a bit, re-strap and try again.

When it was stable at 90, he was ready to go!

Yes, the answer is more noseweight. Most cars spec 50Kg, but this isn't enough when your trailer weighs in at approaching 2 tonnes+. Best to go for more.

If in doubt, get a ball that can handle a big load! I use a combination hitch (ball and pin) which has a 5 tonne max pull - either ball or pin. The towbar on the RV is rated at 5 Tons (best Imperial Tons, none of this Euro-Tonne malarky!), so no worries there.

RV and trailer goes 9.3Tonnes all up!

[Colin McKay]

I also run an RV + trailer (enclosed) that goes over 9 tonnes all-up, and used to have problems with snaking especially when being overtaken at speed by anything bigger than a small panel van. No amount of adjustment of the load helped and I suspect the whole problem was due to the enormous overhang behind the rear axle on the RV, which does no favours when reversing either. The solution, although not ideal, has been to fit one of the friction-type anti-snaking devices which has transformed the handling, but I would rather the outfit was more stable in the first place.

Another possibility: a friend swopped his old type Discovery for a new one and the trailer that had always behaved impeccably suddenly became a wild monster with a mind of its own. This was eventually tracked down to the tow ball being a couple of inches lower on the new car, not the simplest thing to remedy but, once done, no more problems.

Re the tacho/'O' licence/driving licence debate, I won't get drawn into it again but surely our friends at MSA/Motorsport Now could do a feature on this to help clear things up. Thereafter why not include a guide with starter packs? Anyone on here got any influence there?

I have always found Vosa very helpful with this sort of thing, or perhaps the MSA think the ostrich approach is best - when I see the average line up in the paddock I wonder how on earth half the outfits make it there. According to the haulage industry trade press Vosa roadside checks are to be stepped up and there is currently a campaign aimed at 3.5 tonners + trailers with no tacho so, whilst we have got away with diabolical liberties so far, I think things may be about to change. Whether this is a good or bad thing will no doubt cause some debate!

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

Another possibility: a friend swopped his old type Discovery for a new one and the trailer that had always behaved impeccably suddenly became a wild monster with a mind of its own. This was eventually tracked down to the tow ball being a couple of inches lower on the new car, not the simplest thing to remedy but, once done, no more problems.

How did he rasie the towball? I need to do it on my Civic as when the twin axle trailer is attached, there is no weight on the rear axle (or very little).

I have read that towball lowerering using a plate is OK, but raising is not acceptable.