Hans Question

[retro_msport]

Originally Posted by Chris Y

The spinal thing would worry me in terms of movement. I've analysed the way I drive, and have noticed that I tend to bend my back a bit when cornering (admittedly I have a crap seat). I just think that would be a little uncomfortable.

However, doesn't the Hutchens device involve similar thinking? Straps around the torso, linked to helmet straps? It's been a while since I've seen one.

I would say your belts are loose

[Larry J-Croft]

Just out of interest I drove my TR7V8 into the pit wall at Silverstone the other year at about 80-90mph virually head on. The car was totalled and a good 3 feet shorter than at the start of the race. My neck and head were fine - but the effect of a 6 point harness around the nether regions was far more serious. So a Goolie restraining system is probably just as important!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Richy_Rich]

Yes, I remember that. Was quite a biff too.

[ss_collins]

goolie restraint would be good. Owww.

HANS is under researched as I said, so is the hutchens - what I want to see is independant research on the usage of hans, hutchens I'm pretty sure hans can cause accidents and worsen injuries in some scenarios, but one thing is definate it does stop bsf. However there may be more cost effective method or better designs. I for one will pack it in when I'm forced to wear one unless I see such research.

[Al Weyman]

Neil Hasler had a correctly fitted seat in his Mighty Mini,

Off topic but Neil is a mate from years ago, was he hurt bad in this because I have been a bit out of touch as I dont buy the comics anymore.

Back to topic. Ok the hans belts to helmet are dubvious off the roll cage or seat but what about taking them from the seat belts themselves or am I being too simplistic.

[retro_msport]

Al, Neils still kicking about, was out with him a couple of weeks ago for a x-mas meal, he's real busy trying to get his Daughter Holly into Formula Woman.

If you want to catch up with him, 1st wednesday of the month at the Talbot Pub North Weald, A414, 2 roundabouts from the M11 Jun7 ... little meet we have there.

The mini needed a new front end and door and 1/4, we got it all back together and i belive he stuck it on pole, had another knock (mini racing= mini bttc) and the did a few more races, then the mightys came out with a 4 seasons in and your out rule, I and a few others are trying to get him to come out and play in the TRCC in his Sunbeam though...... we havn't given up

[Al Weyman]

Thanks Retro, I am glad to hear he is ok you had me worried there for a bit. Yeah get him out in the Sunbeam he always went well in that and give him my regards.

[retro_msport]

Wil do Al... hes fine now, but i think he has only just got over the damage from the crash, think its 2 years, nothing visable, a ringing in an ear and a slight numbness in his finger... think he was ok'ed to race after 6 months though, and he was wearing a neck brace

[MGDavid]

>>>>given my lack of skill and propensity for going off,
====either you are being modest to a fault, or please don't enter the same races as me. (I do hope it's the former).

[fangio]

I started using a Hans device in 2004; didn't like it at first, but forced myself to get to work with it, even though sometimes when testing I don't it.
At times it is difficult getting out of cars if you manage to wedge a rollcage tube between the back part of the HANS and your helmet....
However, the first time I used it, I put a car in the Armco head on, not at very high speed and for the first time in about 20 years, but I was happy wearing the HANS.
Just look at the arguments, and you'll start using it.

Even with a slow Mini you can hurt yourself badly, so speed has nothing to do with it. It is effective at almost all speeds.

I have been using the Stand 21 HANS, with small raised lips and a rough surface.
All the current homologated seats are ok for the HANS. It is important to get the back straps for the belts fitted correctly, especially not too far apart.

[R59]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Thanks Retro, I am glad to hear he is ok you had me worried there for a bit. Yeah get him out in the Sunbeam he always went well in that and give him my regards.

Blimey, I just clocked this in the thread. I know Neil of old like you Al.

Not sure if he still has the Sunbeam, he didn't mention it last time I saw him (last year's Autosport). I'll ask him on Thursday when I see him!! (usually do!)

As for going well, it ought to, though it did get beaten by Carl Sawford's Mk1 RS2000 a few times in the last year he ran it in Super Road Saloons (that I remember).

Rob.

[carsten.meurer]

hi all !

this thread got me fueled again...

i am all against hans devices !
not only because i am against being told in every single area of racing what to do and what not to, but because i feel this is a case of corruption rather than a case of forcing racers to spend some cash on there safety !
something that often enough is needed !

don't get me wrong, i am sure a hans device can work good in high speed oval racing, and very high speed racing with cars with nearly no deformable structure, if the cockpit, seat and belts are designed for the device, and the device is used in its intendet way ( i do not recall to have seen any f1 driver with the correct length of hans straps ! ).

i always felt that in most if not all club level racing, a hans would rather harm the driver !

mostly because it doesn't allow for the seatbelts to do there job properly,
and secondly because on a backwards impact, some carbon would be in a delicate position to brake your spine if your unlucky !
i feel it might not be needed due to speeds being relatively low, and surely
all TCs, and some spaceframe SSs having quite biq deformable structures !
they will slow you down enough that a scull base fracture is unlikely !

personally i have never seen a accindent in my 25 years of racing where i am sure a hans would have safed a life, but i have seen some where the lesser room for head movement with an upside down SS would have been a BIG problem !

as if to proof i am right, i was surprised to see on the monte coverage that mostly all drivers were driving WITHOUT hans !

now this would be the light at the end of the tunnel for me !

hope all club racers get together, and for once do not follow those who recieve the cash from us blind ! if the rallye boys can tell FIA to go home with it, we should to !

recomend hans for suitable cars, even highly !
but do NOT make it mandatory !

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

...as if to proof i am right, i was surprised to see on the monte coverage that mostly all drivers were driving WITHOUT hans !

That was because people like Loeb are no longer Works Drivers, hence hans (!) is an option, not mandatory.

And why do they not use it then? Uncomfy maybe?

[Al Weyman]

Something I don't understand in all this, in road cars and road accidents is there many deaths of the type that Hans could save?. If not is it because of airbags and the fact that the occupants are not wearing heavy helmets. If this is the case then maybe there is a case for alternate methods like an airbag system or a lighter helmet dare I say.

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Something I don't understand in all this, in road cars and road accidents is there many deaths of the type that Hans could save?. If not is it because of airbags and the fact that the occupants are not wearing heavy helmets. If this is the case then maybe there is a case for alternate methods like an airbag system or a lighter helmet dare I say.

An airbag does to same as a HANS device, just less obtrusive but potentially less effective.

I am in two minds at the moment, but made sure I bought a HANS clipped helmet at the show. The big problem is the shoulder mounting point on the harness have to be high up, not easy in a saloon car when you don't have the money to buy a new shell and have a new homologated roll cage made for it.

Any ideas/pictures would be appreciated.

[Eddy V]

It seems the FIA is making things easy again (for them). All of the sudden all helmets for Hans systems need a sticker on it, no problem as all the new ones (should) have that silver FIA sticker.
Only problem is the FIA rule is only a few months old, the first helmets a year old and therefore have no sticker.

The first problems are already happening in Germany. Where to get that sticker, mandatory in all German championships as of 01-01-2006?

See here, chapter III, Drivers equipement.

[Al Weyman]

Maybe some brainy guy out there could produce an effective airbag system that can be retro fitted in a race car and put say a reasonable £300 price tag on it then the need for this awkward ill fitting Hands device would be eliminated. Even better if the device could be easily moved from car to car. I think this would also be the answer for the Historic boys, that and mandatory wearing of a full face helmet in all cars including saloons.

[midgetman]

Hey Carsten I totally agree with you.

I go back to my point about personal risk assessment. There have been more cyclists killed this year than racing drivers. There have been more smokers killed than racing drivers. There have been more deaths due to alcohol than racing driver deaths. There have been more deaths caused by medical error than by not wearing HANS devices.

So why should I be lectured on safety by a cigar-smoking, brandy-drinking medic? I'm a grown-up and have made my own risk assessment. I smell the whiff of hypocrisy and money.

Nice to hear from you again by the way - how's the helmet painting business these days?

Max

[flagwaver]

I have no doubt that a Hans Device would save lives in RTC's (Road Traffic Collision). But there that arguement ends, unless you want all road car drivers to wear helmets & have racing harnesses etc.
And whilst I am not in favour of a nanny state sometimes people need protecting from themselves.
Almost all safety devices used in modern racing will have some drawback in certian situations. (percieved or otherwise) & almost all have been the subject of some resistance.
The fact you have to wear a helmet, does increase the risk of spinal injury. Due to the extra weight.
There are drawbacks in using airbags, & don't think airbags are cheap. Ask anone who has had one go off in a road car.

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Maybe some brainy guy out there could produce an effective airbag system that can be retro fitted in a race car and put say a reasonable £300 price tag on it then the need for this awkward ill fitting Hands device would be eliminated. Even better if the device could be easily moved from car to car. I think this would also be the answer for the Historic boys, that and mandatory wearing of a full face helmet in all cars including saloons.

From what I know of it, and at the outset I will state that this is not much and I wouldn't want anyone to take a decision about whether thay use or don't use HANS based on what I say, airbags would be totally unsuitable.

The primary function of an airbag is to prevent head / wheel contact, not prevent BSF, which is unlikely using a normal road car seatbelt, because the belts don't restrain the torso enough.

On the other hand, a race car with a multi-point HARNESS, will not allow the body to move far enough to impact the wheel, (the wheel could always be forced back but then an airbag wouldn't help anyway) but BSF is, as is well proven, a major risk.

There is currently available research and experience to show that HANS has prevented injury. Although, some posters here hint at them increasing the risk of other sorts of injury, I am yet to see any reasoned information, details of research or actual case. Are there any?

[carsten.meurer]

buisy as always max !

eddy, the hans label is only needed for fia sanctioned chships !

the dmsb is just too dumb to understand the rules they take from fia and
give out in german...

they are sooo dumb and harming the sport i decided i want never ever hand them money for a race licens again!
so if anyone here can help me to a belgian or uk licens, give me a shout please !

why this label in the first place ?

you pay your asn for your licens !
this fee should be used to write practical rules for your sport, and provide trained personel at races. after all they give out licenses to scruteneers,
who need to pay for theires too !
then you pay the organiser, who pays the scruts !

now these scruts are not able to tell one helmet from another !

so you pay 20 euro for a sticker that tells the scrut, that your lid is in the list of hans post eligible helmets, and the hans post is fitted in the intended way !

should not the msa make sure the scut knows his stuff in the first place ?

i bet you get a fance painted 10 quid helmet with hans posts and a fake label
past most scruts ! they NEED to be able to recognize awhat helmet it is from yards away !
i saw people use a original snell85 xfm-1 with a fake snell2000 label !

you NEED to know its impossible ! after all its not 400 snell helmets out there !


any why can't this label be on the inside, next to the rating, so it needs not to be replaced after painting ? ...because it earns them another 20 euros i guess !
is it made from eligible material after all ?
you know most helmets are unvalid if altered with appyed stickers...

the bike racers are more clever than we !
the axed the asn's and went to privately organised events without this
bull&%$t !

just on a side note: dmsb askes you for this sticker on one hand, still you can use a 11 yea old helmet with snell 90 for national racing !
but only after promoting for a year it will not be eligible...makes sense ?



on safety not for hans devices:
armin schwarz broke his collarbone in a small off early last season, because the belt was too loose after the initial impact, and the hans device moved !
thus on second impact he was not protected properly and slipped from his belt !
as most likely scenario !

also interesting the aspect of works drivers...
does it mean as long as i do not accept a work ride, they will not force me towards this silly thing ?

or do i need to pay for a private wrc ride, to get away from hans, as they will
be mandatory on club level ?

this is insane !

[Eddy V]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

...the hans label is only needed for fia sanctioned chships !.....or do i need to pay for a private wrc ride, to get away from hans, as they will be mandatory on club level ?

Thing is Carsten, DMSB wants the sticker for all national racing in Germany as of now. Just found it out recently.
I've been told FIA wants to take it even further after 2008. National everywhere as of 2009?

The whole Hans thing was another of FIA's disasters in deploying it too fast too soon.

[MGDavid]

>>>but BSF is, as is well proven, a major risk. There is currently available research and experience to show that HANS has prevented injury.
===Where please? I have asked on this BBS before for references or links, but none ever given...

[carsten.meurer]

eddy,
its not written in the rules like this...

most racing can still be done without hans, so why have a sticker only if you helmet has hans posts ?
why not rahter remove the posts ?

these idiots need to be cut out from racing as soon as possible !

actually its a case of fraud !
its says ' for motorsport ' in the 'clubs' name, but in reality they do absolutely
EVERYTHING to kill racing ! i'd rather see someone kill them !

hope some racers will wake up and tell the dmsb to get lost !
just stop racing in germany for a year, and they might see its not the right way...

its soo sad, it makes me mad !

[REALIST]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

>>>but BSF is, as is well proven, a major risk. There is currently available research and experience to show that HANS has prevented injury.
===Where please? I have asked on this BBS before for references or links, but none ever given...

http://www.autoracing1.com/GoodBoys/001107hans2.htm


Here's one link that outlines the early 90s research and MB tests. It took me 15 secs to find on google, and there are dozens. (There are none so blind.........?).

Further, look up the number of BSF fractures before and after the introduction of HANS into NASCAR. If you really want to know. Try:

http://www.gordonline.com/editorials/110301.html

Now I expect you'll be back to debunk the links and all the other stuff, but do you really believe guys like Carsten are any more reliable?