Penalties and their effectiveness.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The argument against that is that there were some drivers that were quite able to negotiate the circuit without abusing the track limits. The problem is that circuits are constantly being altered to make corners and bends easier to negotiate, and tracks wider. All that then happens is that drivers seek to take advantage of the alterations, pushing the boundaries and just abusing the new track limits.

It's just a vicious circle.

I don't think I said anything about making the corners easier or indeed the track wider?

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I don't think "more" penalties is anyone's goal. For me and maybe others, we want more impactfull and timely consequences so than there will be fewer offenses and therefore fewer penalties. As as been discussed ad nauseam, it's clear that the drivers are able to stay within boundaries when incentivized to do so. Such as high curbs, walls, slick paint when wet, grass, etc.

At the end of the day, we all just want to see everyone race, stay within the rules and not see penalties play a significant role in race outcomes. Some of us don't want to dumb down the sport by just giving up and not enforcing track limits or making the tracks so wide there are effectively no limits.

Richard

More severe penalties on their own I don't think is the answer for Austria and maybe a couple of other tracks. Perhaps that is part of the solution.

MotoGp used to give a ride through penalty for jump starts which completely ruined your race - basically you would most likely finish last. And guess what? People made jump starts. Now they have a long lap loop instead which might cost you 3 or 4 seconds for the same thing and there has not been a massive increase in jump starts.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by steve_r

I don't think I said anything about making the corners easier or indeed the track wider?

Steve, what did you mean when you posted this earlier today if it doesn't equate to making tracks easier for drivers to avoid track limit transgressions?

Originally Posted by steve_r

I think that there is nothing wrong with track limits penalties in many situations. But if the track layout means that 1200 penalties would be applied over a weekend, then something needs to change beyond giving endless simple time penalties. You could either relax the rules for that particular set of corners or preferably introduce physical changes to the track in order to discourage or penalise someone running wide.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by steve_r

More severe penalties on their own I don't think is the answer for Austria and maybe a couple of other tracks. Perhaps that is part of the solution.

MotoGp used to give a ride through penalty for jump starts which completely ruined your race - basically you would most likely finish last. And guess what? People made jump starts. Now they have a long lap loop instead which might cost you 3 or 4 seconds for the same thing and there has not been a massive increase in jump starts.

Re-read my post you quoted. I specifically call out that there is no desire for penalties to impact race results. Note that "increase in severity" is not equal to "draconian". Sure you could black flag a car on the first offense! I mean that would make a difference, but as we know the infraction count will never be reduced to zero, so with non-zero number of infractions, a forced DNF/Black Flag will create a big impact.

You have mentioned that the 1200 infractions is an indication of a problem. I 100% agree. I am saying... The penalty is overly lenient and the feedback loop takes too long. There is nearly zero incentive for some to behave correctly. And the current system allows for a significant number of infractions before ANY consequences are imposed (talking here about race day and not potential quick laps being lost in qualifying).

I also am a believer that there may not be any single solution that works in all cases. There very well need to be some circuit adjustments. But IMHO, that would be the exception and not the norm. I would do the following...

Immediate term
* Significantly reduce or even eliminate the quantity of "warnings" regarding track limits during the race. Maybe you get one. But after that, you get some type of penalty. Maybe it doesn't even need to be more severe than today. But it needs to happen swiftly. Nearly zero tolerance. Of course exceptions can be handled for cases in which someone is forced off track, etc.

Medium term
* The above should reduce the number of infractions. But if there remains some problem corners, then "consider" modification. But I would make any modification more around discouraging the use the the specific offending line that results in out of bounds driving vs. widening the circuit or worse yet just ignoring track limits on that corner. I mean if we just ignore this stuff, F1 might has well just stop this turn left and right thing and race on ovals!!!

Long term
* Automated monitoring and penalty system. Again, the penalty should be impactful (enough to discourage the practice), but not so much as to fully ruin the race. This automation would both reduce the work load on race control/stewards as well as likely increase the speed of feedback to the drivers. In the end it's in the drivers hands to keep it on the circuit.

Richard

[Gerard C]

The rules exist. Plus what is said and shown during the briefing for each track. Why such a difference between what is done at amateur level or WEC and F1? Silverstone is a good example even during one make series they have warnings, penalties in time, DT and even post race penalties and virtual DT. Works fine, nobody complains.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

The rules exist. Plus what is said and shown during the briefing for each track. Why such a difference between what is done at amateur level or WEC and F1? Silverstone is a good example even during one make series they have warnings, penalties in time, DT and even post race penalties and virtual DT. Works fine, nobody complains.

There are the rule which are broadly written. And then there is (for a lack of better term) "procedures" that exist to convert the rules into a workable process. And those procedures clearly can vary from series to series, track to track, etc. An example being a race director saying that for a given event that violation of track boundaries on the exit of a specific corner might not be enforced.

Richard

[Gerard C]

Right. That's why drivers briefing exist. All drivers and team managers must attend and sign the form at the end. Should anyone need more info its given in public.

[Tourer]

Maybe someone at the FIA has been reading this thread and has had a "hold my beer" moment - wow, 1 million Euro - that's serious dough.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Maybe someone at the FIA has been reading this thread and has had a "hold my beer" moment - wow, 1 million Euro - that's serious dough.

To put it into perspective they have had a $250,000 driver fine cap in place for over a decade now..... I dont recall a driver fine of anything near that amount in that time.

Max got stung $50,000 for touching Lewis's wing a couple of years ago and even Lewis last week for his mid race track walk last week only got fined 50,000 Euros of which half was suspended. For all the fuss that was made of that you would think they would have used an amount nearer the limit they have. In a nutshell the spineless FIA dont have the balls to use the driver penalties they already had before this latest maximum fine increase.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by E.B

To put it into perspective they have had a $250,000 driver fine cap in place for over a decade now..... I dont recall a driver fine of anything near that amount in that time.

Max got stung $50,000 for touching Lewis's wing a couple of years ago and even Lewis last week for his mid race track walk last week only got fined 50,000 Euros of which half was suspended. For all the fuss that was made of that you would think they would have used an amount nearer the limit they have. In a nutshell the spineless FIA dont have the balls to use the driver penalties they already had before this latest maximum fine increase.

Funny you should write this today because this is what I wrote near the start of this particular thread:

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Well, I come back to my proposition from earlier in this thread (and countless others): the FIA has to grow a backbone and introduce draconian penalties that actually punish errant drivers which they enforce rigorously or they just ignore track limits and just let the drivers decide which parts of the area they want to drive on as it's obvious that the drivers are incapable of keeping on the track.

[Gerard C]

I basically agree with you both, E.B and Mike and may be the fact that we did race gives us a slightly different light. Because this thread is about Penalties and their effectiveness I'd like to add that penalties are already in the book and pointed out during the drivers briefing of each track/race so its more about the effectiveness of the said penalties. How does one judge the effectiveness of a penalty when its not applied? In other words if the disease is identified they should change the doctor before thinking about inventing a new medecine. IMO.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Funny you should write this today because this is what I wrote near the start of this particular thread:

Apologies Mike I was late to join this discussion. I shall now do a quick speed-read of what I have missed.

It does seem like we are singing from the same choir sheet though! Im sure we are not alone.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by E.B

Apologies Mike I was late to join this discussion. I shall now do a quick speed-read of what I have missed.

It does seem like we are singing from the same choir sheet though! Im sure we are not alone.

You're not....

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

You're not....

+ 1 makes 4.

[Mike Harte]

Those blooming poltergeists just get everywhere!

Oh, and by the way, that wasn't supposed to be a dig at you, Chris, more emphasising that many minds think alike.

[NaBUru38]

Avoidable contact of course shouldn't be penalized with a million dollars.

Deliberate crashing a la Schumi 1997 or fistfighting a la Nascar should indeed be so.

[chillibowl]

Can’t wait to see who they decide to make an example out of for this one?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Avoidable contact of course shouldn't be penalized with a million dollars.

Deliberate crashing a la Schumi 1997 or fistfighting a la Nascar should indeed be so.

Yes, I can’t disagree with that. Most incident happen through mistakes anyway, which will always happen

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes, I can’t disagree with that. Most incident happen through mistakes anyway, which will always happen

I'm not sure that most of the 'incidents' that we've mostly been talking about in this thread can be classed as 'mistakes'.....

[billy bleach]

I million euros? Just another action by F1 that makes the whole show look more and more out of touch and vulgar by the day.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Avoidable contact of course shouldn't be penalized with a million dollars.

Deliberate crashing a la Schumi 1997 or fistfighting a la Nascar should indeed be so.

I'm not convinced that fines are appropriate in any circumstance. To me it seems like an excuse for extortion to line the FIA's pocket at the expense of a driver. Those offences you mention, and all the lesser ones we've been discussing, should be penalised with sporting penalties. Time penalties and grid drops for lesser offences. Exclusions and race bans for serious ones. Licence withdrawal for the most serious.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm not sure that most of the 'incidents' that we've mostly been talking about in this thread can be classed as 'mistakes'.....

Which incidents are those? I know there’s been a lot of talk about track limits, but that’s not what I was referring to…

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Which incidents are those? I know there’s been a lot of talk about track limits, but that’s not what I was referring to…

How about when Schumacher forced his own brother off the track and very nearly into a solid wall? Was that a mere mistake?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

How about when Schumacher forced his own brother off the track and very nearly into a solid wall? Was that a mere mistake?

No, I never said that and you know I didn’t.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Which incidents are those? I know there’s been a lot of talk about track limits, but that’s not what I was referring to…

Yes, that's what I meant, track limits as that has dominated the thread.