UK Grid Size League Tables

[macsport]

Stacy

I've sent you updated figures for the Mini Se7ens and Mini Miglias grids via PM.

Jeff

[andy97]

Stacy, I'd also like to point out that the following series are not CSCC Series, although they have been annotated as such (they do sometimes buy grids off CSCC but I don't think that CSCC is the organiser):
TRC Monoposto (other classes and 2000)
Nippon Challenge
Toyo Tyres XJS
Jag Saloons

Also, I'm not sure what a "CSCC Open Sportscar" series is; I don't recognise it, unless its the Sports Vs Saloon scratch race that occurs at the end of each day?

[MartinSmith]

What an interesting thread......great debate, not sure as there was any need to be so patronising to "Mike...oh Mike" re when he was in school though..... he has, like most of us im sure, an interest in Motorsport ....otherwise he wouldnt be on here

I can see both sides to this debate, it is, after all , as has been pointed out, just a series of numbers ...thats all..and if people want to use the information provided to help them make important decisions then that can not be a bad thing....can it????? arrrh but by the nature of this thread it is more than just a series of numbers and is proving to be considered by some more than that and that is where my two main concerns with regard to publishing this are:

1 Validity -
Who is validating/auditing this data? is it being audited and if it is then who by?, who is proving to the world that what is published is correct?..It was stated that this information is available as we know from the likes of TSL etc and all that has been done is that it has been tabulated but how do I know (be it I am a competitor, a Marshal, just interested, a potential series /championship promotor, an MSA official) that it has been tabulated correctly?..that it is "telling the truth" so to speak.
It was likened early in the thread to "the stock Market" well then, please, lets remember that there seems to have been a great deal of false indication and misinterpretation of figures there (I can say that...i work in the city!!!) Please dont anyone take that personally...I am merely giving a balanced view and using previous replies as examples I am not for one minute suggesting that this table is intended to decieve I am questioning its validity and its proof of validity)
The MSA when they produced these figures are the governing body of the sport so I would assume there would be a certain amount of trust along with credability if they were to publish these figures but I am concerned that just publishing what you believe to be average grid sizes may be misleading if it has been calculated incorrectly. It states on the website "we are striving for it to be accurate"...erm...surely if you are broadcasting this in an effort "for competitors to make informed decisions on where to invest their money" then it HAS to be accurate? how can I make an "informed " decision ...if ...I am ill informed?

2 The Motive - If the motive for this publication is as an aid to be informative for all then, providing it is correct, I see no harm in it at all (but I would lose the colour coding as it likens it to some type of football league table and I can just imagine Gary Lini on "Grid of the day" saying "Well xxx Championship....down to 8 on the grid....they are going down") there is no need for the colourcoding indeed there is no key as to what the colours stand for therefore, why do they change? Also might i suggest that you indicate which are series and which are championships and also which are invited collections of races (Masters for example) as if we are going to get the picture and it is for information....surely it is better to have all the relevant information?

I would hope that a competitor/potential competitor would not base their judgement soley on this type of information. I know that if it were me, I would, if thinking about competing, want to look at all the facts not just the size of the grids, I would want to look at the people and the organisation, go to a few of the meetings first perhaps as a spectator to get the feel of it, before I joined a series or entered an event and I would hope most would be the same. However, this type of information maybe a key in deciding if I bother to go along in the first place, if I bother to put petrol in my car and go see that meeting and that i fear could be damaging to whoever is at "the bottom of the league" so to speak but I fear more to motorsport itself.

I have a friend who was not into motorsport at all, didnt interest them one bit, but I invited them to a recent meeting that I was involved with at Donington, so they could get a feel for what I constantly bored them with over dinner or out socially etc.... they could not believe the atmostphere and had a great time, took great pics etc, loved it, they never saw the league table but if they had of done....would they have come to that meeting? if they were looking at that for an "informed decision" would they have driven the 100 odd miles to donington?, I fear not as the meeting was for an organisation that is in the "red sector"

Hopefully the data within the table is correct and it serves its purpose for whoever needs to see it to determine what they want, used in conjunction with others factors but above all common sense it may be useful to some, providing it is not used to further the cause of individuals or Organisations that may wish to benefit from the loss of others.

Ta
Claire

[JimW]

Thanks Stacy for a fascinating set of information. Hope you can update from time to time.

Broadly speaking it shows a good correlation with the events/meetings I enjoy and so confirms my personal view as to what I enjoy. (Some exceptions to the rule, mostly involving people/cars of interest.)

Personally I feel that most of the ones at the bottom of the table ought to be giving serious attention as to their future. In most cases selling tickets would be an offence under Trading Standards if you called them "Racing". (Not all cases before anyone blows a fuse.)

Recent example of a race at Thruxton which had four (or was it three?) cars. That really ought to have been knocked on the head weeks before and certainly on the day.

We need to consign trackdays-with-timing to where they belong.

Apologies to anyone working hard to develop a series but I'd only give you a very short time before pulling the plug.

Can't manage ~15 cars on a grid? - you would be heading for amalgamation/the exit.



Regards

Jim

[Tainan]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

I would hope that a competitor/potential competitor would not base their judgement soley on this type of information.

I would hope not too! That would be pretty reckless.

To be fair if everything posted on the internet had to be validated / audited there would hardly be anything left. Numerous threads on this site show that enthusiasts in every capacity are interested in grid sizes, but a similar number show that quality is just as important. I doubt there will be many decisions based solely on this one chart, and it has its limitations, but its another 'tool' that's been made available to use if you wish.

[Stacy]

Jim,

I think our views are very much aligned. An update is being worked on as I type from our sources, just waiting for todays updates too.

Claire,

Thankyou for your considered response. For fear of repeating earlier statements I'll make these points only;

1. Validity. All the figures are open to challenge and private validation, and those have been made in here and direct to myself. It's not perfect, but it's all we have. If you wish to spend the hours validating it then please do so, let me know and if you find any errors we'll correct. However we peer review, and are open to public challenge - given the subject matter I don't think many seriously think KPMG need to audit further..

2. Motive. Since publishing this I have received 63 separate communications thanking us for doing so, from clubs, competitors, marshalls and suppliers. The only concerns about it were raised here. Given the numbers involved I thus have no doubt it's the right thing to do. All our data is open to challenge, but little has been found wrong. Further, for clarity, we are doing it purely because the MSA, media or others do not do so. The day they do openly we will stop.

I'm afraid we have a divergence of views when we start talking about "atmosphere" at poorly supported meetings being a reason to maintain series on life support. Where this thread came in was the diminishing resources available to UK club motorsport.. Grid sizes are not the be all and end all, but they are like it or not, a major factor and as distinctive a success criteria as we have.

Finally I recall a Historic MSA meeting a few years ago where the Chairman of the HSCC made an impassioned argument about the number of similar series in the UK at the time "all sporting half a grid". "Why can't we join them and have one successful series?". As time marched on he appeared more prescient to me, rather than less..

Taking a higher level view above who "owns" the new series, and further ensuring that all existing competitors from both series are properly managed, why on earth shouldn't some organizers benefit from the demise of the less successful? I'm afraid that one is lost on me.

Anyway, update soon now I'm back in Blighty and soaking up some of this lovely cloud we've been having..

S.

[TIMELORD]

Is there an updated list, taking into account all of 2009? I can't get any joy with the link in Post 1 of this thread.

[Stacy]

Hi,

Yes it was updated but the website has closed - just finding somewhere new to host and I'll put the revised link up.

Cheers

Stacy

[Lazaro_Milton]

Hi

if anyone is interested I have produced an updated version of this table based on how championships have performed from 2011 to 2012

a lot of the top 20 championships lost racers in 2012 but the overall average grid capacity has barely changed!

this version is ordered on how full the grids are, expressed in a percentage figure rather than a average grid size number, as that can give a squeued perspective e.g. races at lydden can start a lot less cars than snetterton 300 and silverstone arena gp layouts

the full info and thread is here
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136068

thanks