Driver Safety

[phoenix]

Following the tragic death of Henry Surtees, is it time to consider what should be done to further improve driver safety in single seaters, or indeed any open topped cars, to drastically reduce the chance, or severity, of head injuries?

This is not the first time that a 'foreign object' has found it's way into the cockpit of a race car and caused death or injury - and sadly it won't be the last.

[Super Hans]

Whilst the cockpits are open, there'll always be a certain risk. I think what we need to do is take reasonable precautions whilst recognising that the sport will never be 100% safe.

[EvilPumpkin]

guys, very happy to see this thread but just a word of caution - please keep the discussion to the topic. I have no problem with using the recent sad events as an example of what could be improved but keep it to the technical aspects. Any blame flinging, slurs on motorsport organisations of any kind or their personnel etc. will not be tolerated however, so let's stick to the known facts and have a sensible discussion about how to avoid problems in the future. Many thanks.

[VIVA GT]

I'm sure that everyone affected by the recent sad events would be pleased to see something positive to result from it if possible. However I do feel it's important that if any changes are made they are clearly thought out solutions, and not a simple knee-jerk reaction.

[tristancliffe]

No. Open wheelers should continue to be open cockpit. There is no need whatsoever to even consider a change, and I hope knee-jerk reactions are not made. If the drivers don't want to race, then they don't have to. If the spectators don't want to watch it because it's too dangerous, then they don't have to.

Overregulating the world in the name of 'safety' is not the way forwards.

[Stephen Green]

There are other safety matters to consider as well. If you were to close the cockpit of any open wheel racing car, it would make it more difficult for the driver to exit the vehicle in an emergency. For example, should a cr be inverted at the moment marshals can carefully get the car onto its side so the driver can get out in relative safety. Were you to enclose the cockpit it may be that damage to the "roof" might prevent that from happening. It's all about reducing the odds of a bad accident as we will never completely eliminate problems or dangers.

[jondownunder]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

No. Open wheelers should continue to be open cockpit. There is no need whatsoever to even consider a change, and I hope knee-jerk reactions are not made. If the drivers don't want to race, then they don't have to. If the spectators don't want to watch it because it's too dangerous, then they don't have to.

Overregulating the world in the name of 'safety' is not the way forwards.

Totally agree.

[mountainstar]

Having seen the video of the recent accident, it was such a freak occurrence that I don't think there was much you could do really. However there was another F2 driver back in the early 80's, Markus Hottinger, that was killed by a flying wheel.

Probably the only thing I can think of would be improving the wheel tethers in terms of the cars.

In addition I think working on driver standards with drivers in certain series helps as well. Not saying it was the fault in this incident, but I've seen a lot of crazy dangerous driving in some of these junior formula and that doesn't help.

[Stephen Green]

The only propper way to police driver behaviour is for the governing body, be that the FIA or national motorsport bodies, to lay down strict guide lines and then make sure they are adhered to.

All to often the more junior drivers take their lead from drivers in series where contact is a regular occurrance and this in my view leads to them taking those values and applying them into their own series.

The simple fact is that no safety device is infallible. There will always be occasion where the freak accident renders it useless. The job in hand, I believe, is to cater for the vast majority of accidents in terms of safety and also to make sure driving standards are set and maintained at all levels of motor sport.

[terence]

In some instances you are probably correct,but Driver Standards had no part in this case.We have to face facts,as some have already suggested,there is not much else to be done in respect of wheel tethering,there will always be the risk of a wheel breaking away from the hub,if that happens no amount of tethering will help.Its a risky business,we all know that,we should not start thinking in terms of "Full Roll Cages" or anything of the sort,Single Seaters have,by thier nature,been that much a higher risk,how many cars get launched because of wheel contact?. Then driver capability gets called into play.

[Reference to post 9]

[Steven Humphrey]

The only way to make open wheel racing 100% safe would be to ban it-and none of us want to see that. The fact that they are open cockpit will always make them vulnerable to objects hitting the driver. Just look at Christiano Da Matta's collision with a deer a few years ago and compare that to rally cars hitting kangaroos etc-open wheelers will always come off much worse. But looking at it another way-what type of car would you prefer to be in if it caught fire?

[bella]

is anyone able to link to specific fia guidelines for single seater safety?

[Daniel Pinnegar]

Firstly and foremost I am deeply saddend by the death of Henry Surtees.

In reference to you Terance I believe that there is alot more tethers can be improved by.

The material that is used at the moment, in F1 at least, is called polybenzoaoxide and can withstand a load of up to 5000 Kg. However the material breaks easy if twisted or bent...sounds like what happens in an accident if you ask me. The polybenzoaoxide also has to be kept out of sun light.

I can also not remember in recent years any incidents where the wheel has stayed attached to the car in the passed few years apart from Albers at San Marino when he rolled the car over.

Surely this is the upmost thing to look at in terms of safety.

http://www.f1technical.net/articles/64

[foreversideways]

It was a tragic accident but it was freak. It must be remembered that motor racing has gone from being one of the most dangerous to being one of the safest sports to participate in. I won't list all the more dangerous ones but equestrian eventing is one which stands out. Between 1997 and 2008 37 riders have been killed, 18 between 2006 and 2008. The very nature of driving cars at high speed around a track means that occasionally people will get injured or killed. I myself had a loose wheel fly past my helmet in an FF1600 race a couple of years ago. It's a risk drivers and spectators know about and accept. I don't see radical change being needed.

[terence]

Absolutely agree! DP,in that case,the material should be changed!.Much the same as carbon fibre,it has little "give" in the kind of impacts we have seen in F1 or where ever it is used.I dont recall seening so many wheels parting company when the suspension components were made in steel tubing.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

The only proper way to police driver behaviour is for the governing body, be that the FIA or national motorsport bodies, to lay down strict guide lines and then make sure they are adhered to.

All to often the more junior drivers take their lead from drivers in series where contact is a regular occurrence and this in my view leads to them taking those values and applying them into their own series.

The simple fact is that no safety device is infallible. There will always be occasion where the freak accident renders it useless. The job in hand, I believe, is to cater for the vast majority of accidents in terms of safety and also to make sure driving standards are set and maintained at all levels of motor sport.

Much as I despise the workings of the FIA at its highest levels, some good things do go on.

For example there is a Single Seater Technical Working Group chaired by Jo Bauer and within the last 18 months it has specifically looked at the question of wheel tethers. They wheeled in an FIA boffin, who wasn't much help as he said, having looked at a discarded selection of F1 wheel tethers, that you couldn't tell much by looking at them. Ones that looked ready for the skip would sometimes turn out to be stronger in tests than ones that looked pristine.

Two conclusions were drawn. The first was that routine replacement was advisable. Ironically, F2 wheel tethers can have had very little use in relative terms, because this is the the first season for the formula and there have only been a few tests and race meetings, so logic suggests forget that one.

The second was the way in which the wheel tethers were attached was every bit as important as the strength of the tethers themselves.

Originally Posted by bella

is anyone able to link to specific fia guidelines for single seater safety?

Every FIA-approved formula should have standards laid down for it. In the case of Formula 2, for instance, you can rummage around this .pdf file
Or, more interest than necessarily direct relevance, this one about wheel tethers in general.

It always takes me ages to find the F3 Regulations, which are buried in the bowels of the FIA site, but when I have done so I will post a link to them as well.

[strider]

Originally Posted by strider

It always takes me ages to find the F3 Regulations, which are buried in the bowels of the FIA site, but when I have done so I will post a link to them as well.

Not quite as bad as I thought, although I can't make it work direct.

Go to this page and then, about halfway down the page click on Article 275 Formula Three Technical Regulations (2009) and that should open a a .pdf file. I'll leave you to find the relevant articles in there, because I'm sleepy now.

Note these are the Technical Regulations, which is what you want. The Sporting Regulations are irrelevant.

If I may add my own opinion. As others have said, it was a tragic, freak accident and it is impossible to legislate against those. They happen, often due to an unforeseeable sequence of events, as on Sunday.

[banbury]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

No. Open wheelers should continue to be open cockpit. There is no need whatsoever to even consider a change, and I hope knee-jerk reactions are not made. If the drivers don't want to race, then they don't have to. If the spectators don't want to watch it because it's too dangerous, then they don't have to.

Overregulating the world in the name of 'safety' is not the way forwards.

Nothing else to be said.

[GraveltrapNigel]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Following the tragic death of Henry Surtees, is it time to consider what should be done to further improve driver safety in single seaters, or indeed any open topped cars, to drastically reduce the chance, or severity, of head injuries?

This is not the first time that a 'foreign object' has found it's way into the cockpit of a race car and caused death or injury - and sadly it won't be the last.

No, it is not time to consider further improvements in safety. This was a very sad freak accident.

[Mak]

I am wondering how people posting to this topic believe that they have enough information and qualification to be giving advice on future regulation. There will be an official investigation into this horific and very tragic accident and the appropriately qualified people will then make there appropriate recommendations.

[Steven Humphrey]

Originally Posted by Mak

I am wondering how people posting to this topic believe that they have enough information and qualification to be giving advice on future regulation. There will be an official investigation into this horific and very tragic accident and the appropriately qualified people will then make there appropriate recommendations.

I don't think anyone posting here thinks that anything we say will be taken into consideration by the governing bodies. It's only a fan forum after all. Nothing wrong with healthy discussion though.

[foreversideways]

Originally Posted by Mak

I am wondering how people posting to this topic believe that they have enough information and qualification to be giving advice on future regulation. There will be an official investigation into this horific and very tragic accident and the appropriately qualified people will then make there appropriate recommendations.

Genocide is horrific, a driver in a racing car being hit by a wheel and being killed is tragic for his family but hardly horrific. It's a forum people are allowed to express their opinions, thats the idea.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by Mak

I am wondering how people posting to this topic believe that they have enough information and qualification to be giving advice on future regulation. There will be an official investigation into this horific and very tragic accident and the appropriately qualified people will then make there appropriate recommendations.

The investigation should go (and I mean no disrespect to the Surtees family, as I know first hand what they are going through):

1. The wheel fell off when the car had a crash
2. Can we make the wheel nuts/stub axles strong enough for this to never happen again?
3. No
4. Should we do anything else?
5. No


I'm all for learning from the past, and not being stupid for the sake of being stupid, but it's not like this is a common occurance, and nor is it likely ever to happen again. It's not like the cars are too quick, or lack adequate protection as in the Senna/Ratzenberger accidents (and I'm not so sure the cars were too quick!). That needed a reaction, and we've ended up with stepped floors, high cockpit sides, better crash testing... But trying to regulate against wheels either falling off or bouncing is just too far in my opinion. **** happens.

[Thundersports]

Good post Tristan I agree.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

I'm all for learning from the past, and not being stupid for the sake of being stupid, but it's not like this is a common occurance, and nor is it likely ever to happen again. It's not like the cars are too quick, or lack adequate protection as in the Senna/Ratzenberger accidents (and I'm not so sure the cars were too quick!). That needed a reaction, and we've ended up with stepped floors, high cockpit sides, better crash testing... But trying to regulate against wheels either falling off or bouncing is just too far in my opinion. **** happens.

Perhaps this is the engineer in me - but I think that's a horrible attitude to have. **** does NOT just happen - a chain of events link together to cause a tragedy. You can always and should always improve on the safety of every race car, road car, aircraft, etc when possible. Much like in aviation, every serious accident (fatal or not) needs to be investigated to determine if something could have done a better job protecting the driver. Does this mean we have to bubble wrap the world to make it safe? No, racing will always be dangerous, but that doesn't mean we can't take every reasonable means to ensure that we've engineered the safest car possible, given a particular formula.

We'll have to wait for the official investigation in this one - though it looks pretty obvious that if an improvement should be made to the wheel tethering systems (or anything else), it should be made.