MotoGP's Sad State...

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by chunder

Spot on dragger, you sound like a kindred spirit on here for me, and that is rare I tell you!

Back in the late 80's you had to prove yourself to get the best tyres, Michelin only gave one set of super tyres to 4 riders, usually Kevin, Lawson, Doohan and or someone else, usually Mackenzie or Gardner or the other Yam, its why Suzuki and Roberts eventually tried Dunlops in 90.

The bikes were 2 stroke then obviously, hair trigger throttle response, tyres that were good but were coming from an age where corner speed was king like now, and were trying to cope suddenly with a 170hp NSR not a 130hp RG500 on crossplies!

The reason the guys got injured more is simple, there was a clear talent pool and a lot of riders in it. They were all pushing like mad, far more than they do now in my opinion. As they really were on a tightrope back then. Every one of them was seriously injured once, even Lawson, but only when his career was pretty much over.

Put simply, the bikes were harder to ride, which if as a fan you understood and realised, made these guys total Gods to us mortals. As they rode on the limit and pushed each other.

Rossi knows it, Roberts knows it, watch the interviews Spies did with Lawson in 2010, you will see those guys realise it.

The racing wasn't any better, but you could SEE who was the best, you could hear it, and you could touch it.

Now, all you hear is a load of staggered throttle and cutout, sorry you might call it progress, but F1 managed to do away with it.

And regarding Superbikes, there are no more injuries in BSB now than years ago and we haven't run TC for 3 years, and some of our bikes are WSB spec.

Motorcycle racing has always been my favorite up until this past year. Got my 1st dirtbike when I was 5, used to race a CBR954RR in some local amateur races. Just never had the budget to keep doing it.

I just wish the FIM would do something to fix the series, there's still some good racing, but it's becoming a national series, less international.

Spec ECU
No more trac, launch, or wheelie control
More safety air barriers

Years ago I was watching a World Supersport race at Assen, there were 12 bikes in the lead group crossing the finish line. 12 bikes, 12 riders fighting for the win, never seen anything like it, never will again.

Bike racing has a few advantages over car racing, it's easier to pass, you can actually SEE the riders at work, no down force so it's all mechanical grip and rider's balls. And it's cheaper too. The gap between a $15,000 street sportbike and a race bike(even WSB AND GP) is a lot closer than the gap between a $50,000 sportscar and any race car. Comparing a Ferrari 430 to the slowest F1 car is like comparing a fighter jet with a lampshade.

I miss the glory days of motorcycle racing, when the Daytona 200 was the fastest Superbikes on the full track, electronics didn't determine races, and 600 Supersport were slightly modded streetbikes and the top 10 finished within seconds of each other.

[chunder]

It wouldn't be hard to get back to that.

Sadly AMA has disappeared so far up itself after the Daytona and NASCAR deal situation, uts hard to think it will ever matter again! Their WSS rules were prett much superstock and it worked, racing was superb.

I do think people will drift away in the UK sadly now with the BT deal, at least with Eurosport and BBC you could still dabble into the races, but now, that market is going to disappear I am afraid.

As for rules, its tough, BSB is pretty much a template and WSB are going to try that template over the next few years, so we will have to see.

But GP is over a barrel with the manufacturers, Honda, Yam and Ducati aren't going to let their millions go to waste by allowing any old Herbert to come in, buy a top bike and win.

You can see their point, but not many fans can sadly, and that is what will matter eventually

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by chunder

It wouldn't be hard to get back to that.

Sadly AMA has disappeared so far up itself after the Daytona and NASCAR deal situation, uts hard to think it will ever matter again! Their WSS rules were prett much superstock and it worked, racing was superb.

I do think people will drift away in the UK sadly now with the BT deal, at least with Eurosport and BBC you could still dabble into the races, but now, that market is going to disappear I am afraid.

As for rules, its tough, BSB is pretty much a template and WSB are going to try that template over the next few years, so we will have to see.

But GP is over a barrel with the manufacturers, Honda, Yam and Ducati aren't going to let their millions go to waste by allowing any old Herbert to come in, buy a top bike and win.

You can see their point, but not many fans can sadly, and that is what will matter eventually

R.I.P. AMA

The last year of AMA was going down hill anyways. There were 4 classes, Superbike, FX(like 600 Superbike), Supersport, and Superstock. What the manufacturers did was all take each one series, Suzuki had factory bikes in Superbike, Honda had factory bikes in FX, and Yamaha Kawasaki took the other two.

So each series had two factory bike walking all over privateers. It sucked. And they all bragged about winning a championship in the magazine and TV ads.

The Daytona Motorsports buy out was the last nail in the coffin. I haven't watched a lap of it since.

[gossie]

I've read what you guys have said.........But I still LOVE it, and can't wait for the last round this coming weekend.

Good luck to both Jorge and Marc. May they give us some edge of the chair racing, and may the best man get the WC.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by gossie

I've read what you guys have said.........But I still LOVE it, and can't wait for the last round this coming weekend.

Good luck to both Jorge and Marc. May they give us some edge of the chair racing, and may the best man get the WC.

MotoGP is about having the best riders in the world compete against each other.

Problem is, Spanish sponsors are so ignorant and closed minded, we don't get to see the best riders in the world, just the best riders from Spain.

Imagine if U.S. companies were as ignorant. The Champions in F1 over the past 30 years. Marlboro is an American company, what if they only sponsored American drivers? Good chance Senna wouldn't have got a drive with McLaren, we might not have ever known he was one of(if not THE best) drivers in the world.

The racing might be fun to watch at times, but it's not the best riders in the world anymore. THAT is what MotoGP is about, answering the questions of, what if we put the best riders in the world on the best motorcycles in the world and raced at tracks around the world?

[littleman]

Whilst I'm mightly impressed by your obvious knowledge & passion for all things Bike racing related, I think the negative attitude towards the Spanish connection is wrong (and I'm not Spanish!).

Their investment in Sport should be applauded and recognised, perhaps other countries should do likewise......................

It's no coincidence that they have the best National soccer team in the World, Spain won the World Cup, the best Club team in the World in Barcelona, the Best tennis player in the World in Nadal and the best F1 driver in Alonso.Then in MotoGP they have Lorenzo, Marquez and Pedrosa. Their golfers are pretty damn good too.

The question we should all be asking is, how have they done it?
Even Andy Murray - a Brit - was taught to play tennis in Spain!

[thetool]

And what have all those connections brought them? A country that, other than Greece is in the worst state of any within Europe..

[littleman]

With respect, their Sporting achievements and their dire financial position as a nation are two entirely different subjects.

Until the Global financial meltdown, they were a rapidly growing economy but with hindsight, dreadfully exposed to the property market in particular.

Nothing to do with their success as a Sporting nation.

[GORDON STREETER]

WTF is Rossi up to getting rid of Burgess !
I don't know if he can win in his last year even with all the motivation in the world !

[gomick]

Spanish riders have won the last 17 GP's across all the classes - last non Spanish rider to win was Scott Redding at Silverstone...

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by littleman

Whilst I'm mightly impressed by your obvious knowledge & passion for all things Bike racing related, I think the negative attitude towards the Spanish connection is wrong (and I'm not Spanish!).

Their investment in Sport should be applauded and recognised, perhaps other countries should do likewise......................

It's no coincidence that they have the best National soccer team in the World, Spain won the World Cup, the best Club team in the World in Barcelona, the Best tennis player in the World in Nadal and the best F1 driver in Alonso.Then in MotoGP they have Lorenzo, Marquez and Pedrosa. Their golfers are pretty damn good too.

The question we should all be asking is, how have they done it?
Even Andy Murray - a Brit - was taught to play tennis in Spain!

How? Easy, already explained it, Spanish sponsors only want to sponsor Spanish riders. They're sponsoring riders purely based off their nationality. It's an International series(well, it WAS) there's great riders around the world but companies like Repsol only want to see Spanish riders.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by gomick

Spanish riders have won the last 17 GP's across all the classes - last non Spanish rider to win was Scott Redding at Silverstone...

Exactly. And what the Spanish owned MotoGP is losing is credibility as an International sport and they are losing it fast.

There are National racing series in other countries with more diversity.

[littleman]

Originally Posted by Dragger

How? Easy, already explained it, Spanish sponsors only want to sponsor Spanish riders. They're sponsoring riders purely based off their nationality. It's an International series(well, it WAS) there's great riders around the world but companies like Repsol only want to see Spanish riders.

Repsol seemed perfectly happy having Stoner ride for them and he's doing all their testing work.

Anyway, who out there is better than Marquez & Pedrosa?
Only Lorenzo and Honda have already tried to sign him.

[gomick]

Spanish run & owned Aspar MotoGP team will run Hayden & Aoyama in 2014 - conspiracy from Dorna not to have a Spanish rider? Why would Espargaro leave this team to ride a CRT somewhere else

[littleman]

Didn't Nicky Hayden win his title on a Repsol sponsored bike?

Over recent years we've seen top riders like Spies,Toseland, Crutchlow, Dovizioso etc come in on decent machinery and none of them have impressed like the Spanish guy's have.

I've no doubt, if a truly exceptional rider appears on the scene who's non Spanish, Repsol and Honda would sign him.

[gomick]

For sure, Honda sign who they want to sign - remember they chased Stoner!

[littleman]

I'm at a loss to understand why Repsol, and "All things Spanish", are being viewed in such a negative way. Surely all sponsors should be welcomed and valued. Repsol have already demonstrated (through Hayden, Stoner & Dovizioso) that they don't care who rides the bike so long as they're good.....which will be Honda's decision anyway.

As far as I'm aware, riders and Sponsor's from any nationality can enter MotoGP so I guess the real question is, Where are they?

The fact the Spanish are dominating bike racing say's as much about other Nation's apathy as it does about Spanish enthusiasm.

[chunder]

Apathy! Are you for real for Gods sake!

If you had spent 30 years bankrolling your racing championships initially with huge amounts of Ducados fag money and latterly with Telefonica and CEV Buckler millions, you would also expect to be dominating GP bike racing

They do chuff all in any other series, other than the odd wins by ex GP riders in WSB and BSB.

No other country has bankrolled their bikesport as much as the Spanish so they are getting what you would expect. I am sure if Germany, Italy or Japan did the same they would dominate too, but they haven't. in the UK and Oz hardly anything is spent promoting riders to GP, so the fact any get here is staggering.

To be honest guys like Stoner (funded through Spain mainly, Redding, started in Spain as did SMith, Chaz Davies) should be applauded to get anywhere near, they have all had to go there to get even a chance, as guys like Haslam, Vincent, McWilliams, Laverty before them tried to buy their way in got nowhere, you have to embrace the Spanish life and series to have any chance at all in GP racing, now, and those that have are managing to do well regardless of race, but clearly being Spanish is going to help more than anything else.

[GORDON STREETER]

Estoy de acuerdo con que mi amigo

[gomick]

How aggressive was Jorge at the start of Valencia - did Dani have words after the race?

[gomick]

How aggressive was Jorge at the start of Valencia - did Dani have words after the race?

[pedrocor]

The Spanish success in GP racing is mainly due to huge investment in their national feeder series since the 80s...

They have a Moto3 championship with almost 40 riders, a Moto2 championship with 30 riders... however no Superbike (they have a Stock Extreme series, Superstock 1000 bikes with slick tyres) nor Supersport championships

As such, their riders and teams will follow GP racing route, not Supersport/Superbikes, as many riders competing in other countries.

Nowadays not even Japan as a Moto2 championship, despite all using Honda spec engines. Even J-GP3 (Moto3).

As so, not hard to understand why riders like Kenta Fuji (125cc/Moto3 Japanese Champion 2011), struggled at world level, despite lots of testing and racing with a Moto3 bike before anyone else...

Romano Fenati, Louis Rossi, Nico Antonelli, Nikki Ajo, Miguel Oliveira, Danny Kent, Jonas Folger, Jasper Iwema and many others competed at some point of their careers on CEV 125/Moto3 series. And, at this level, it's really hard to beat spanish riders at spanish series, even if some very odd things are due to prevent that from happening... (last time was 2007, with Stefan Bradl beating Scott Redding, best Spanish being Efren Vazquez 3rd). Since then, only Miguel Oliveira was close of beating Maverick Viñales in 2010 (142pt-140pt), Oliveira winning 4 races agains 2 wins for the 2013 World Champion.

[chunder]

Indeed Pedro

And Oliveira has not really reache the level most people thought he might yet. Maybe the bike? Maybe coz he keeps crashing at important times.

Stranger still is that Portugal being so close he is one of very few Portugese getting involved in CEV and the feeder series, unless all the others are rubbish of course!!

[pedrocor]

Originally Posted by chunder

Indeed Pedro

And Oliveira has not really reache the level most people thought he might yet. Maybe the bike? Maybe coz he keeps crashing at important times.

Stranger still is that Portugal being so close he is one of very few Portugese getting involved in CEV and the feeder series, unless all the others are rubbish of course!!

Miguel had a pretty rubish first year in 125cc with Team Machado (Caja Andalucia). Almost always faster than his 1 year experienced team mate and 2009 CEV champion Alberto Moncayo, didn't realise the team wasn't as strong as Ajo, Blusens, Team Germany or Aspar nor did they had the top notch bikes from Aprilia, tried to hard, a few falls, broke an arm at the 5th GP, later on the season was fired (some criticism from his entourage after some DNF due mechanical woes and probably some sponsors failing to pay).
Last year started the year well, despite Suter Honda not being the class of the field, beating is new team mate, some Alex Rins, fell from the lead in the wet in Jerez and Le Mans (and had a suspension problem in Estoril while fighting for the lead), struggled in the mid season, but generally was fastest than Rins, had an amazing second place at Philip Island but too many DNFs meant only 8th on the standings.

In 2013 I think we had a terrific year, if you consider there where 8 factory KTM bikes and an amazing Jonas Folger with a Kalex KTM. One pole, four front row starts, one podium, a poker of 4th places, in a Mahindra, almost doubled the points of is team mate. He was the choice of Team Calvo for Viñales bike in 2014 but Mahindra didn't released him from the second year of the contract.

As other portuguese riders, some have been racing in feeder series in Spain but there is no money at all for bike racing in Portugal. He had Ivo Lopes with some interesting results in Spain and even in Red Bull Rookies Cup but he opted to continue racing in Portugal in Superstock because he didn't had the budget.

Feeder series in Portugal have few riders competing (an average of 8 per class), the bikes are old, teams already have the best setup for ages, not really developing young talents.

[Dragger]

Originally Posted by littleman

Didn't Nicky Hayden win his title on a Repsol sponsored bike?

Over recent years we've seen top riders like Spies,Toseland, Crutchlow, Dovizioso etc come in on decent machinery and none of them have impressed like the Spanish guy's have.

I've no doubt, if a truly exceptional rider appears on the scene who's non Spanish, Repsol and Honda would sign him.

I'm not talking about 2006, I'm talking about today.

If you want to go back a few years, ok, Pedrosa crashed his teammate Hayden out of the Championship lead in '06, a year later they fired Hayden but kept Pedrosa who hasn't won a single Championship, yet has had 3 different riders win Championship on the same bike, the best on the grid. 8 years and counting.