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18 May 2010, 13:24 (Ref:2693312) | #1 | ||
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Need help tracing the history of an Alan Mann Escort
Right, I seem to have embarked on a long voyage in deep waters and could do with some help.
I recently acquired an old Escort Mk1 without the engine and have been tracing its history. It has the AMR front suspension setup but 6-link rear suspension and Atlas axle. the engine is missing and there is no chassis plate. I have subsequently found out the car was brought to the Caribbean by Alec Poole and Derek McMahon who raced here quite allot. It came here with 1800 BDA on injection, ZF gearbox and Atlas. It is described in Poole's original notes as an ex Alan Mann/Ford Boreham/Don Moore car with rear suspension converted to Broadspeed 6-link (no AMR torsion bars). I subsequently contacted Gillian Fortesque-Thomas who raced the car for Ford before Poole/Mcmahon got it. She says she raced two cars after the Mexicos, one was an old car that Boreham dusted off to use as a test mule for the new 2ltr alloy block and ran in shell colours in '72 run by Don Moore. The other was a blue/white car with a 1300BDA she used in the '73 Grand Prix support race where Brodie had his big accident. I've spoken to Dave Brodie, he's trying to find me some info from Ford friends. My Ford friends (Martin Sharp and Barry Reynolds) reckon the car is X00 347F, chassis number is BB48GP18167 that was shipped to Poole in August 1973 and is probably an ex-AMR car. My purpose now is twofold: firstly I have to confirm that this reg/chassis number is right because I have to ship the car back to Uk for restoration on the correct number. Bearing in mind Boreham's history of swapping about chassis numbers depending on what cars were going out the door, I'm not sure how far I can get other than establishing that no other car currently bears these numbers. I also would like to gather as much '68 to '71 race history just to stick in my file. Any help appreciated. |
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19 May 2010, 06:33 (Ref:2693780) | #2 | ||
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Greg, sounds like you have done quite a lot of research already so apologies if I am suggesting anything already tried!
Author Graham Robson is one of the most knowledgeable people on Ford Touring Car history. Alan Mann Racing are still operating- running Fords in historic saloons for Henry Mann. Sounds as if you have already contacted Alec Poole- if not he is busy organising 2010 Tour Brittania so contact details on that website. I am ready to be corrected but thought that AMR Escorts had Len Bailey 'inboard of chassis rail' coil sprung rear axles? A period cutaway drawing of XOO349F shows thus. The torsion bar setup I assumed was Boreham experiment? Looking at XOO347F listing in GR's 'The Works Escorts' it suggests car 'loaned to several race teams'- not specific AMR car- then as you say sold to Alec in 1973. The 4 AMR race cars were 344, 346, 348 & 349. On quick search cannot find any race results or pictures featuring XOO347F, so maybe was used for development? Good luck with your quest (not going to be easy without any proof of id!), and if you are able to post any pics of the car you have may stir someone's memory somewhere! |
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19 May 2010, 11:02 (Ref:2693935) | #3 | ||
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Thanks Mike
The only connection I have to this car and AMR is an entry list from Croft on 10/8/68 noting Jackie Oliver as racing an AMR car (second car was Gardner which I assume in 349F). http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...8%20Croft.html I then have a reference (personal recollection) that the car driven by Oliver was 347F in the same year in 'supercharged' form. Those cars may well have been different cars but the race entries make no reference to reg numbers so it's hard to make the connection. What I'm after now is old photos of 347F if I can find any. If you could post or e-mail that old cutaway I'd greatly appreciate it. I've e-mailed Mr. Mann but still awaiting reply. This car may well have been a development car its entire life, in which case I'd put it back in '72 spec (probably easiest to do that anyway). There is no doubt that it is a works car but if I can make the connection back to Oliver in 68 by way of a photograph with the reg number I'd consider that. The hand-made alloy arches on the back of this car are quite unusual and in very good shape, Gillian remembers them being uncharacteristically large at the time. Poole's '74 notes refer to using F1 tyres on the back of the car and the original Minilites are still on it. I'll see if I can find Graham Robson. |
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19 May 2010, 11:48 (Ref:2693966) | #4 | ||
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Hi Greg
Certainly one of the other AMR cars did some races in '68 with the famous 'hair dryer' s/c, but always assumed it was 344, 346 or 348. As you say, a picture would solve the question easily if it showed the reg plate! Unless sold again XOO 349F is with the Mann family. It was in period trim last time I saw it. The cutaway drawing was done in 1969 for Ford as promo- I have only small version in a Robson book. The RS1300 Gillian F-T raced in 1973 was a Broadspeed car- round h/lamps, BBS style wheels and later arches now described as 'Zakspeed' arches, so more likely the Boreham 'test mule' would be the car sold on to Poole. One question for you- is the wiper spindle set up LHD or RHD? Regards, Mike |
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19 May 2010, 12:51 (Ref:2694033) | #5 | |||
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Quote:
Ha! The famous LHD wipers. Yes, this car has them (one) as well as the AMR front suspension. Poole notes the rear end converted to Broadspeed 6-link and I have the original Atlas with those links which are on long arms like Mk2 rally cars, not short arms like Mk1 rally cars. Gillian and local drivers note the car pushed the front a bit and had large front tyres to compensate, probably a function of it being essentially un-matching front and rear suspensions. |
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19 May 2010, 12:26 (Ref:2693999) | #6 | ||
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If it was originally Gold and red I was offered that car in the 70's when I was into HotRod short circuit racing and dealing in cars by a motor trader collegue of mine Doug Bell who's son (same name) used to race in Formula Vauxhall I believe. The reg looks very familiar and it was fitted with a Lotus twin cam engine and definitely an ex Alan Mann car that he had taken in a part exchange deal. He wanted a £1000 for it which I declined (and kicked myself ever since) as it was way too nice a car for short circuit racing and also was not within the regulations.
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19 May 2010, 12:49 (Ref:2694027) | #7 | ||
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There were sixteen XOO prefix cars, Al- although only 4 are documented as used by AMR for UK and European races. 344F was sold to Barry Pearson in Feb '69, 346F to Stan Clark Cars Oct '71, 348F to Wylies Sept '72 and championship winning 349F to Vince Woodman in July '72. So possibly one of those?
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19 May 2010, 12:58 (Ref:2694039) | #8 | |||
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Quote:
Last edited by Greg Cozier; 19 May 2010 at 13:09. |
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19 May 2010, 14:38 (Ref:2694084) | #9 | ||
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Mystery solved I think.
I just received a copy of Retro Ford Sept. '08 from the editor (my request). In it is an article on AMR. Some quotes: "AMR collected six Escort 1100Ls from Dagenham in November 1967" "the cars were registered XOO 344F, XOO 345F (written off by Jackie Oliver), XOO 346F, XOO 347F, XOO 348F and XOO 349F" Three cars ran in UK and two in Europe it would seem from the article. Now all I need is some race history and photographs for my car specifically, especially if it was an ETCC car with different livery. The arches on the car now are aluminium, the article states the AMR cars were originally steel. Obviously someone was developing the car from '69 to '71 so it looks like I have some work to do. |
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19 May 2010, 19:07 (Ref:2694262) | #10 | |||
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Quote:
Any help I can give from here let me know. Regards, Mike |
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15 Nov 2010, 09:05 (Ref:2790865) | #11 | |
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Hi,
I took this photo at the Oulton Park Gold Cup meeting in 1968. Graham Hill was the driver. Writing on door "Alan Mann Racing". Sorry, I don't have the full reg no. Andy Clegg. |
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15 Nov 2010, 09:10 (Ref:2790869) | #12 | |
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Hi,
This photo was taken 2003 at Goodwood Festival of Speed. Andy Clegg |
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5 Jan 2011, 13:40 (Ref:2811481) | #13 | ||
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Hi,
I´m new here.. I´m looking for information about RS1600 and all info are welcome. Will start building a RS1600 during 2011.. What´s special about AMR front suspension? Got any photos? Can be emailed to my personel emailaddress (johan AT johansvahn.com) ex. Matti J Kemiläinen RS1600 have aluminium front wishbones and the dampers upper plate is abit unusual too. Rear suspension does have a 4 link with Watt link and Torsionbars (ARB). J. |
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24 Jan 2011, 11:00 (Ref:2819802) | #14 | ||
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some info on another XOO reg here
http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=103504 I think it is this car nr 1 Andersson/Davenport XOO 355F and that stands in startlist. Yes, the car that provided the first homologated Escort TC Internatiional rally placing (San Remo, as a Gp3 car). Although homologated in Gp2 by the time of the 68 Gulf, entered here in the Gp5/6 category (which may have involved nothing more than removing the bumpers). Having done San Remo, Tulip, Acropolis and Gulf, it's believed this car was not used again on a rally. It was stolen in Athens in 69 (having been used as a practice car for the 69 Acropolis?) recovered and sold to a Greek Ford dealer. Have heard it said it later went to Australia. I have a feeling this photo is taken at a control in South West Scotland, the slightly downmarket looking caravan site appearing in other photos. Not far from where the terrible road accident involving a service crew happened. |
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23 Apr 2011, 08:16 (Ref:2868492) | #15 | ||
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Completely out of my depth here, but it wouldn't be the Escort brought to Australia for Allan Moffat to use ? It was painted red at one stage with Coke signage but also white when he raced it at Macau ? It vanished from knowledge after that.
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2 Jun 2011, 01:15 (Ref:2889732) | #16 | ||
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Quote:
Originally painted white and blue IIRC. |
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9 Jan 2016, 08:57 (Ref:3603273) | #17 | |
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only read this now. At least 2 Alan Mann Twin Cam's ended up in Holland in 1968. Definitely X00 346F raced for Frami Racing which was financed by Ford of Holland.
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23 Feb 2018, 08:54 (Ref:3803344) | #18 | |
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All the history of the six escorts that ford supplied alan mann is well documented in Robsons works escort in detail book , the missing car XOO 347F was found by Greg Cozier and recently restored and sold in the UK , all 5 cars accounted for , one was written off in testing. The famous Fahey championship NZ car was always thought to be a Mann car but in Faheys recent book he explained Ford promised Gardners car XOO 349 F but when he arrived in the UK it was sold on so was offered a backup car sitting at Boreham , painted white it was supplied with two FVA engines and racing gearboxs . Another car supplied to Holman and Moody in the USA and eventually sold to Alan Moffat in Austraila has always been referred to as an Alan Mann car , did ford build up these cars to the Mann specs.
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3 Mar 2018, 14:01 (Ref:3805467) | #19 | |||
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Quote:
Robson got some of his info wrong. The Shell car he shows on page 114 is driven by Gillian but it is XOO 347F with the first aluminium-block BDA (not yet homologated) installed for testing. I met up with Gillian in Barbados last year and filled in quite a few gaps over many rums. Ford didn't build any of these cars. They gave builders parts (including bodyshells with registrations) and money to build and run them. When they retired from racing they went back to Boreham. That is where Alec Poole bought 347 in 1974. I'm sure they were all disposed of similarly. |
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8 Mar 2018, 02:23 (Ref:3806771) | #20 | |
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Thanks Greg , you and I have conversed on this matter for a while now , these two famous FVA cars down under < fahey and Moffat via Holman and moody were both supplied from the factory , this we know , so who fabricated them , could it be Mo Gomm , did Mann build up spare cars but not documented, is there anyone still alive that worked at Byfleet who may know. Regards
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8 Mar 2018, 04:12 (Ref:3806777) | #21 | |
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Moffat's bio says :
"Ford was keen to push its small 1.6-litre Escort in the region and they'd brought a stove-hot version of the car to Australia for me to drive in 1970, alongside the Falcon GTHO and my own Mustang. It had been built by the Alan Mann team, with whom I'd had my love-hate relationship in the States, and a similar car had carried Australia's Frank Gardner to the British Saloon Car Championship in 1968. 'My' car had at first been sent to the United States but, when Ford's plans shifted up a gear to go Trans-Am racing, it had sat in a corner of the workshop of Holman and Moody, one of Ford's racing teams. Al Turner knew it was there and brought it to Australia for me to race " etc etc. No mention of what happened to the car subsequently as he indicates he couldn't wait for the Escort period to end so he could get hold of a V6 Capri. |
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26 Mar 2018, 01:50 (Ref:3810782) | #22 | ||
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Rob the reason that all sounds a bit odd to me is that the AMR chassis 'formula' was not the one that survived the Law of Natural Selection, the Broadspeed version was.
Remember Broadspeed had been given several new body shells at the same time as AMR prior to the 68 launch and in the same registration sequence to race in the 1300 class with the old Anglia pre-crossflow engine.. Every Escort since then has been built to Broadspeed chassis design and the AMR cars were consigned to the 'scrap bin' and sold off. The last chat I had with Gillian and later owners Alec Poole and Harry Watkins confirmed how bad the AMR cars were to drive. So anyone ordering a 'cutting edge' Escort in 1970 would have preferred a Broadspeed car if given the choice. All speculative! |
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26 Mar 2018, 09:34 (Ref:3810859) | #23 | ||
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[QUOTE=Greg Cozier;3810782]
Remember Broadspeed had been given several new body shells at the same time as AMR prior to the 68 launch and in the same registration sequence to race in the 1300 class with the old Anglia pre-crossflow engine. Are you sure they used the pre-crossflow engine? 1300cc, certainly, but surely the crossflow engine by 1968? |
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26 Mar 2018, 14:21 (Ref:3810950) | #24 | |||
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[QUOTE=morninggents;3810859]
Quote:
The regs changed the following year. In 1968 the power of the VERY modified pre-crossflow Broadspeed head was better than the new crossflow. I have pictures and can e-mail them if you'd like to post them. |
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