IMSA USCC in 2016 and 2017

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Another way of saying they "left" is they were pushed out. Spending lots of money on big expensive cars, then slowed down so others could beat them. When ALMS did have P1 cars, they slowed them down to P2 speed. So whats the point in even having P1s?

And you just need to watch the coverage and see the results to see what the favoured class in IMSA is, frankly.

You mean the cars with full professional lineups and lots of money behind them are doing well?

I'm absolutely SHOCKED.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

I'm wondering if they will finally be able to separate refueling and changing tyres once there is not BoPping of DPs and P2s going on.

I sure would like if they went back to the old pit stop rules.






L.P.

[David A Scott]

Originally Posted by Jaguar4

Ed Brown stated they didn't leave IMSA because the BoP or anything like that. Patron wanted to expand their reach globally. You can find his interview on MWM.

That was PR bumpf. Within the first year TUSC lose 3 P2 teams. Coincidence? I think not.

[Jaguar4]

Originally Posted by David A Scott

That was PR bumpf. Within the first year TUSC lose 3 P2 teams. Coincidence? I think not.

How do you know it was just a PR stunt? Did he tell you what "really" happened behind closed doors?

All I'm saying is people shouldn't claim their theories as facts if the person behind the team never stated that.

[David A Scott]

Originally Posted by Jaguar4

How do you know it was just a PR stunt? Did he tell you what "really" happened behind closed doors?

All I'm saying is people shouldn't claim their theories as facts if the person behind the team never stated that.

What I meant was it sure seems like a fluffy answer. Better than saying "I'm tired of getting slowed down so the golden boys cars can win."

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Matt

You mean the cars with full professional lineups and lots of money behind them are doing well?

I'm absolutely SHOCKED.

I know right? It's like they're so good they wouldn't have needed the other prototypes crippled and their prototypes given a performance boost so they didn't get inihilated! It's almost like the guys who came up with the slower cars are now in charge of the whole thing! Shocking stuff.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2012/1...t-sebring.html





L.P.

Seriously? Audi won 2013's 12hrs of Sebring.

Originally Posted by Jaguar4

Ed Brown stated they didn't leave IMSA because the BoP or anything like that. Patron wanted to expand their reach globally. You can find his interview on MWM.

Thats not the point. There are no current teams in prototype from the ALMS days. All the talk about saving the only prototype class that had life (p2) is wrong.

It had Level 5, Greaves and ESM in p2 at Sebring. It had Audi, MMilk, Dyson, Deltawing and Rebellion in p1. After Sebring, only ESM and Level 5 stayed on in p2. Dyson, Deltawing and MMilk stayed on in p1 with the Rebellion doing 4 races. 2 teams vs 2 teams in either prototype class (not counting the DW). But p1 had Rebellion join for a few races and Audi for Sebring.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I know right? It's like they're so good they wouldn't have needed the other prototypes crippled and their prototypes given a performance boost so they didn't get inihilated! It's almost like the guys who came up with the slower cars are now in charge of the whole thing! Shocking stuff.

You know how stupid your post sounds saying the DP cars wouldn't have needed upgrades, right?

You also know the IMSA spec P2 cars are making more horsepower than the ACO equivalent, right?

If MSR had two fully professional drivers in their stable they would be doing much better. ESM will always be hampered by Ed Brown, and Krohn will always be brought down by Tracy Krohn. Put full professional lineups in all those cars and the landscape would look much different. Maybe not entirely with ESM though, because they weren't that great to begin with.

[ATLFalconsFAN]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

I'm wondering if they will finally be able to separate refueling and changing tyres once there is not BoPping of DPs and P2s going on.

It sure seems though that this is part of "the show" that IMSA and NASCAR thinks we want to see though.

We couldn't dare have downtime in pit lane while everyone stands around with their thumbs you know where while the fueler is doing his thing. We need to have things happening as quickly as possible because that is what is EXCITING!!!

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by TF110

Seriously? Audi won 2013's 12hrs of Sebring.


Thats not the point. There are no current teams in prototype from the ALMS days. All the talk about saving the only prototype class that had life (p2) is wrong.

It had Level 5, Greaves and ESM in p2 at Sebring. It had Audi, MMilk, Dyson, Deltawing and Rebellion in p1. After Sebring, only ESM and Level 5 stayed on in p2. Dyson, Deltawing and MMilk stayed on in p1 with the Rebellion doing 4 races. 2 teams vs 2 teams in either prototype class (not counting the DW). But p1 had Rebellion join for a few races and Audi for Sebring.

Seriosly?
It goes to show their intent to withdraw from the series, which THEY DID! Sebring, was their last race.

MMilk, Greg Pickett sold the company and quit racing.
Level 5 .... Really http://autoweek.com/article/united-s...oan-settlement
Dyson is not even racing prototypes at the moment.
Deltawing is still on the grid.
ESM promoting Booze on the World stage.

TUSC Prototype entrants @ 2015 Road America, 8.


L.P.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Seriosly?
It goes to show their intent to withdraw from the series, which THEY DID! Sebring, was their last race.

MMilk, Greg Pickett sold the company and quit racing.
Level 5 .... Really http://autoweek.com/article/united-s...oan-settlement
Dyson is not even racing prototypes at the moment.
Deltawing is still on the grid.
ESM promoting Booze on the World stage.

TUSC Prototype entrants @ 2015 Road America, 8.


L.P.

You just proved my point. Anyway, Audi left alms long before 2013. Ilmc facing Peugeot was where their focus went. Theres a big misconception that lmp2 was the way forward because it was healthier. All that was left was ESM. At least in p1you had teams who would continue with grandfathered cars; Dyson, MMilk (to 2014), Rebellion possibly, Audi at Sebring, maybe even Porsche. TUSC came in and forced change so their subsidised DP teams could compete for wins. Its obvious to anyone without bias the reason.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by TF110

Its obvious to anyone without bias the reason.

The only people it's "obvious" to are those with immense bias though...

[carbsmith]

The Audis (and any other P1 car) were NEVER slowed down in ALMS.

TUSC P has contracted at such a rapid rate it's kind of pointless to cite any kind of car count superiourity over anything. Remember they started 2014 with 13 full time cars and they're currently running 8 with 2 already gone for next season. If Panoz had still cared enough to enter two or three of his own cars like Jim France they'd be in the same position.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by TF110

You just proved my point. Anyway, Audi left alms long before 2013. Ilmc facing Peugeot was where their focus went. Theres a big misconception that lmp2 was the way forward because it was healthier. All that was left was ESM. At least in p1you had teams who would continue with grandfathered cars; Dyson, MMilk (to 2014), Rebellion possibly, Audi at Sebring, maybe even Porsche. TUSC came in and forced change so their subsidised DP teams could compete for wins. Its obvious to anyone without bias the reason.

No I proved my point. The withdrawal of the WERKS monsters (in a good way) was the linchpin in P-1s collapse in N.America, whatever the reason. ALMS and TUSC as the follow on have been in the process of building a sustainable P class ever since. That you do not like the cars that are currently in it does not change that fact. In 2017 the P class will be wholly aligned with the ACO's P-2 class, hopefully with some sustainability.





L.P.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

The Audis (and any other P1 car) were NEVER slowed down in ALMS.

TUSC P has contracted at such a rapid rate it's kind of pointless to cite any kind of car count superiourity over anything. Remember they started 2014 with 13 full time cars and they're currently running 8 with 2 already gone for next season. If Panoz had still cared enough to enter two or three of his own cars like Jim France they'd be in the same position.

P1 cars were slowed in like 2010 or whatever when they combined P1 and P2 into just P. They slowed the P1 cars a bit and sped up the P2 cars a bit.

Other than that P1 had constant BOP adjustments during the Audi years.

[schmidder]

Originally Posted by jasonjessica09

1. GTLM at Lime Rock is awesome I agree. But what if it is a GTLM/GTD/LMPC combination. That would be odd. Who would win the overall victory you think there.

2. I seriously don't think this GTD limit is going to come to fruition.

3. Well it is a provisional calendar. In each of the last two season we saw IMSA make adjustments to the class combinations at some of the events. Remember this past year LMPC was orginally at VIR but got moved to Detroit. I think adjustments can and should be made here. I think there is room to take GTD off Detroit and LMPC off Lime Rock specifically. Lime Rock should be GT only. LMPC is nothing but a distraction. People don't go buy tickets to see them. Laguna Seca should be split classes too. An all proto and and an all GT there too. You watch... VIR in 2 weeks is going to be good. Calls to have more all GT events will come :-)

Always gotta get your laguna split in there...I am always looking for it and u never disappoint..
The year they did it was good, but I think with car counts in high 20s to low 30s they should all run together..

[Accident]

Originally Posted by seanyb505

Internally I'm part of that handful - though I try to be logical and diplomatic in my posts, so take this for what it's worth.

The bold part goes both ways. The unsatisfied are treated as though they're the ones with something wrong inside. If you look at the complainers and the anti-complainers, conversation (from my point of view) goes like such:

***

Me: Internal: "OMG NASCER RUAND MAH SEREEZ" Post on 10/10ths: "This doesn't seem like it is as good as it was."

Anti-complainer: "Stop having an opinion that doesn't bow down to whatever you're presented with. Be glad it exists. I could watch 100 Corollas race, and be happy. Why can't you? What's wrong with you? Something is wrong in your head. Why do you care so much? I'll spend money on something just to watch you get all riled up because you care so much about something."

***

So where does that leave us? You have to be qualified (or simply like the series) to voice a criticism? This series represents the fallout of no more ALMS, something the handful thought was a pretty great way to spend their disposable income. From a fan perspective, there's not much united other than the literal unification of the DP/P2 class. The racing product was changed to something we already knew wasn't our cup of tea.

That's great that for some people, it's changed more into something they like. Be patient with the rest. Either they'll come around, or go away. For people like ATLFalconsFAN and I, we hang around because we know there's change on the horizon. Whatever hope is left hopes that we can better buy into what's next for sports car racing in North America.

Hate to go back a few pages after we have sorta moved on but...

The unsatisified are usually only treated as if something is wrong with them if they are making posts that contribute nothing to the thread, like the previously mentioned "NASCER KILLD ALMS" type posts.

It goes back to what I mentioned about it dividing the forums... After a bunch of "OKEY U CAN LIEK DIS STUPED SERIEZ BUT IT SUX" condescending type posts it starts to wear on people a little, making them less tolerant of future negative posts. It pushes the guys that are satisfied enough (or even happy) with current status into a defensive position and makes them more aggressive with their defense, which in turn sparks arguments that make the detractors more aggressive with their attacks, and the cycle continues.

The hostility that breeds can eventually make the whole thing about "sides" more than discussing ways to improve things and if it gets to that point then that's where things really start to go downhill.

From watching this stuff I found that the whole condescending tone often came from the anti-TUSC guys first... It has been answered by a few though on the pro-TUSC side who are getting more aggressive as well. Saying something like "I miss the P1s..." is quite different than something like "wow people still watch this dumbed-down crap?" and I think any adult can see how the tone of the comment is different. While neither of those comments are constructive, at least one doesn't sound borderline hostile.

I haven't seen many posts like your "diplomatic" version in your interpretation sparking much in the way of arguments, but the tone of your simulated response is exactly the kind of thing that helps build tension... making a detractor into a "victim" that is oppressed and not allowed to have an opinion, followed by a condescending comment about how satisfied fans would also be pleased with Toyota Corollas racing.

No one needs to be qualified to have an opinion or is only allowed to have a positive one, it's more that those opinions should be presented in a manner that is constructive or contributes to a discussion, or at the very least doesn't sound like it's putting down the remaining viewers.

Simply posting "this series sucks" adds nothing to the conversation other than sparks for an argument and doesn't change anything. Instead of saying that the series is terrible without the P1 cars, try addressing the reasons why we don't have P1 cars and steps that could be taken to bring them back. It also might not change anything either, but at least it's something that can be discussed.

If it wasn't for the tone of these "confrontations" putting an artificial wedge in the community, I think most people aren't actually that divided and I think few people are actually more pleased after the merger. It's more that the people who insult the series argue with the people who accept the way things are now, regardless of whether or not the product is exactly what they want.

I'm fortunate in that I don't really care about the P class in either form, I really just watch for the GTE class with GTD as a nice bonus sometimes. While I think we could do a lot better than what we have currently, I don't think that having Muscle Milk lapping Dyson every race was any better than what we have now. Luckily though, since the GT racing has been the same (or better), I can watch and be satisfied enough by the product we have. That doesn't mean I don't think things could be better or wish for them to improve or don't understand why some people are unhappy, just that I can avoid getting caught up in all of it more easily.

I suppose that's enough long winded (ie rambling) posting by myself on the subject for now though. I have watched many different forums for different subjects rise and fall and communities at each other's throats that I find it a somewhat interesting subject.

[YZFrider]

Good post Accident. I just wanted to add that we as fans do have quite a bit of power when it comes to change for improvements. Our feedback via survey, forums, or direct talk with teams and series reps does get across. The two biggest ones last year was the yellow flag fest last year (Sebring) particular and the ditching of MRN radio network.

I think what is frustrating for some of us fans that voiced our concern or criticism is that we predicted or forecasted that which we criticized....and it still happened I.e. Last lap shootouts, dumbing down of cars, teams leaving for other series etc. It may sound like I'm insinuating some NASCAR conspiracy, but my point is this: stock car guys have no business running a series other than stock cars. Some of the same people that transformed Grand Am and AMA road racing from professional organizations into what I would describe as glorified club events are still in charge. Simply, hire people who know what sports car racing is all about.

[joeb]

Alright the last couple of pages were fun, but if I hear any more talk about what killed the p1 cars in a thread about imsa in 2016 and 2017 there will be some penalties handed out.




Edit: If you want to discuss the history of anything ALMS, WEC, P1, etc, there is a section of the forum for that:

http://tentenths.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=12

[TF110]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

No I proved my point. The withdrawal of the WERKS monsters (in a good way) was the linchpin in P-1s collapse in N.America, whatever the reason. ALMS and TUSC as the follow on have been in the process of building a sustainable P class ever since. That you do not like the cars that are currently in it does not change that fact. In 2017 the P class will be wholly aligned with the ACO's P-2 class, hopefully with some sustainability.





L.P.

Not to go more off topic, but you're mentioning "werks cars". Im talking about the classes in general were equally just as 'unhealthy' before the merger. Yeah, its sad theyre not included, and hopefully the new, more powerful lmp2 brings back that awe those cars had.

But whoa, how did you know which cars I like? I think the Ford DP looks decent, but its not a tech marvel like lmp is. Thats why I prefer GTE now. Theyre the main attraction imo. Good looking, very technical, getting faster etc. Thats basically all that what will hold my interest in this series (unless Mazda gets competitive)

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Matt

You know how stupid your post sounds saying the DP cars wouldn't have needed upgrades, right?

I see the sarcasm was somewhat missed.

The reason the DPs do better than P2s? Well you could say it's because the pros run them, and I'd agree. And why do the pros run them? Probably because they're balanced to make them better cars. Fancy that - NASCAR has an interest in making NASCAR cars better than the others.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I see the sarcasm was somewhat missed.

The reason the DPs do better than P2s? Well you could say it's because the pros run them, and I'd agree. And why do the pros run them? Probably because they're balanced to make them better cars. Fancy that - NASCAR has an interest in making NASCAR cars better than the others.

The teams that run them, and by circumstance are driven by pro/pro pairings, have ran them for a very long time and are heavily invested in the chassis and the infrastructure to support them. At this point there is a single competitive P-2 so why would they move away from them. Especially considering that IMSA has said, to this point, that the current P-2 coupes will not be eligible in 2017. If IMSA would grandfather the (P1 safety compliant) current P-2 coupes, like the ACO is doing, then we might see some teams move over pre-2017. Though, unless that happens pretty quick I do not see any teams switching over until after next season. It would be nice to see a minute AoP for the Ligier, to make it a little better, it is just an NTH off (over a competition lap) IMO.





L.P.

[BrentJackson]

Having read the last few pages of this (and seen yet more complaining about P1 cars....guys, come on) I feel somewhat compelled to comment on this.

P1 cars are gone. Period. They are NEVER coming back. ATLFalconsFan's suggestion of P1 cars just for the NAEC frankly from a commercial perspective is absolutely foolish. The four biggest events in the series, and you want them to be taken over by teams who will otherwise not race here? That will leave all of the P2 teams with livid sponsors. There is no point in P1 cars unless you can run them for the full series, and the eye-popping costs of that make sure only the tiniest number of people will even consider it - Kolles' P1 effort in the WEC is a bit of a mess and I don't expect the P2 orphans' P1 efforts to get far because you are looking at at least a 4X increase in costs to run that class. It's the same in IMSA - the cost/benefit ratio of IMSA is terrible, so allowing the one or two people who might have the giant bank accounts to buy P1 cars to dominate the series is for the other teams in the P category an absolute deal breaker. How would Wayne Taylor explain to the guys at Konica Minolta that he now needs several times as much money to win the races, but there is no improvement in the exposure? They'd laugh him out of the room. The argument that the P1 cars would bring exposure is only accurate FOR THEM. For everybody else, they lose, and sacrificing the series' already difficult exposure for the P1 teams is sure to get a big and loud backlash from said teams.

Face it guys, they are gone, they are not coming back. IMSA's commercial state is such that I'm not even sure the 2017 P rules are gonna get all that far, particularly with how garbage they are and the fact that they ruin a sizable number of the people who have supported the series for 20 years. If finances was really the main concern with IMSA, we'd have the DPs until at least 2020.

Open Tires should happen, namely because Continental has said over and over again that they CAN make better tires than what IMSA is using now, and knowing that I'm not sure why IMSA doesn't let them do it and see if Michelin, Dunlop and Bridgestone can do better than them. I can see it in PC and GTD, but in P spec tires makes no sense, even more so considering a DP weighs ~300 lbs more than the P2 does. Since nobody else makes DP tires I'd expect them to have the edge there for the next 18 months, but I'm quite sure Continental does have the ability to make competitive P2 tires.

I really don't understand the desire for ALMS pit rules, aside from allowing the P2's lighter weight to try to be an advantage for them. The safety argument IMO is dumb, because every other series in the world does everything at once, why shouldn't IMSA? Minute-long pit stops don't really help the perception that these guys are professionals, either. If people want these just to kneecap the DPs, just say so already - those of us who do like the DPs already know many people here hate them already.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Having read the last few pages of this (and seen yet more complaining about P1 cars....guys, come on) I feel somewhat compelled to comment on this.

P1 cars are gone. Period. They are NEVER coming back. ATLFalconsFan's suggestion of P1 cars just for the NAEC frankly from a commercial perspective is absolutely foolish. The four biggest events in the series, and you want them to be taken over by teams who will otherwise not race here? That will leave all of the P2 teams with livid sponsors. There is no point in P1 cars unless you can run them for the full series, and the eye-popping costs of that make sure only the tiniest number of people will even consider it - Kolles' P1 effort in the WEC is a bit of a mess and I don't expect the P2 orphans' P1 efforts to get far because you are looking at at least a 4X increase in costs to run that class. It's the same in IMSA - the cost/benefit ratio of IMSA is terrible, so allowing the one or two people who might have the giant bank accounts to buy P1 cars to dominate the series is for the other teams in the P category an absolute deal breaker. How would Wayne Taylor explain to the guys at Konica Minolta that he now needs several times as much money to win the races, but there is no improvement in the exposure? They'd laugh him out of the room. The argument that the P1 cars would bring exposure is only accurate FOR THEM. For everybody else, they lose, and sacrificing the series' already difficult exposure for the P1 teams is sure to get a big and loud backlash from said teams.

Face it guys, they are gone, they are not coming back. IMSA's commercial state is such that I'm not even sure the 2017 P rules are gonna get all that far, particularly with how garbage they are and the fact that they ruin a sizable number of the people who have supported the series for 20 years. If finances was really the main concern with IMSA, we'd have the DPs until at least 2020.

Open Tires should happen, namely because Continental has said over and over again that they CAN make better tires than what IMSA is using now, and knowing that I'm not sure why IMSA doesn't let them do it and see if Michelin, Dunlop and Bridgestone can do better than them. I can see it in PC and GTD, but in P spec tires makes no sense, even more so considering a DP weighs ~300 lbs more than the P2 does. Since nobody else makes DP tires I'd expect them to have the edge there for the next 18 months, but I'm quite sure Continental does have the ability to make competitive P2 tires.

I really don't understand the desire for ALMS pit rules, aside from allowing the P2's lighter weight to try to be an advantage for them. The safety argument IMO is dumb, because every other series in the world does everything at once, why shouldn't IMSA? Minute-long pit stops don't really help the perception that these guys are professionals, either. If people want these just to kneecap the DPs, just say so already - those of us who do like the DPs already know many people here hate them already.

I too wish that the P class had an open tire rule, or at least a P-2 chassis specific Conti tire to go along with the other spec tire.







L.P.

[August]

I think the Ligier is perfectly competitive vs. the DPs, they've had some mechanical issues costing them the chance to win plus an all-pro lineup would help them.

As for the P class future, we'll see what it's gonna be like. The new P2 rules don't sound too exciting, it's like a DP built on a P2 chassis. And I'm worried about the car count, where would new teams come from? Adding P1 wouldn't sound like a solution, it'd probably be a lead class with even less cars (apart from occasional appearances from WEC teams).

It's surely a strange situation you have now that manufacturers' main interest is in GTLM despite that there are the prototype classes. Maybe if the 2017 regulations don't get more manufacturers to the P class, IMSA should consider becoming GT-only. Or maybe keep P but get rid of PC which feels like a class that doesn't generate interest at all. Maybe that would make some more teams to enter P.

As for American fans desire for P1s, what if IMSA dropped Sebring from their own calendar and hosted WEC there. American fans would get what they want, IMSA/NASCAR/whatever as the track owner would have a good event, and maybe of IMSA teams at least Corvette would join WEC there. It's a race that could be something special, yet as an IMSA race it really isn't.