Pre 1966 Appendix K issues

[Jeremy Hall]

So now you begin to see it-scrutes play god all the time and it is no fun. Why should they let one thing go and not the next-who decides what affects performance and what does not-if there is an appeal against the decision there is no where to go.
FIA will shortly list those who can ''red spot'' forms at non FIA races but at the end of the day FIA has no sanction at all in non FIA races-and there are none of those outside TGP and Lurani.

[terence]

Which brings us back to the use of FIA as an enticement to these various Series.If the organizers want to use the lable,they should run the events to the specific ruling,s by the FIA full stop!

[zefarelly]

It'll be very interesting to see what the FiA Historic racing commission do over the winter asides chatting and drinking wine

to my mind the easiest way forward without actually doing anything is to stop race organisers from using and abusing the 'fia' as a selling point for their series if its not going to be enforced, monitored or even slightly adhered to, all it does in devalue the only decent International historic racing standard we have.

[James Murray]

Guys, a friend of mine is currently building an AppK spec 59 Frogeye Sprite. Where can he get hold of the homologation papers for this type of car, and will he be bound by what can be done up to 59, or can he modify up to end of 65?

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

It'll be very interesting to see what the FiA Historic racing commission do over the winter asides chatting and drinking wine

to my mind the easiest way forward without actually doing anything is to stop race organisers from using and abusing the 'fia' as a selling point for their series if its not going to be enforced, monitored or even slightly adhered to, all it does in devalue the only decent International historic racing standard we have.

totally agree - sadly I fear it is unlikely....

[Brendan Roberts]

James from what I understand (and I may be quite wrong!) you have the appx K homologation forms for the car (available I think from MSA) and then the amendments in period which are scheduled under 'Appx J' - I think. I have the same dilemma with my '59 Elite. I have a copy of the CSI forms of recognition (which pre-date the full series 2 Elite homologation) but am still confused by what I can do on items like fuel tank and, following recent posts, bonnet stays, hinges etc! If I have read the posts correctly appx K requires that the car retains the original bonnet/boot stays, hinges, door panels, dashboard and instrument size/position although the instruments can be replaced by modern items. If so then dont simply do as others you see in the paddock! Perhaps Jeremy Hall can enlighten us if he visits this thread.

[James Murray]

Thanks Brendan, I'll pass on the info. His main query is whether he has to stick with the 998cc engine or put in a 1293cc, which the Mk2 sprite used I think. I thought single seaters were tricky but this lot is a mine field!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by James Murray

but this lot is a mine field!

Then folks complain about scrutes and organisers.

I tried to make that point previously. Trying to make AppK fit a preiod when cars were developed is possibly the reason why there are so many problems. It seems that one may interpret the regs in many ways. This IMO may be why Group 1 (for example) may prove to be a better basis, simply because you have to comply with the homologation certificate and any amendments. AppK appears to require compliance with the Homologation Cert if it suits and with the written regs if it doesn't. Very confusing and thus who can say who is right and who is wrong in many instances.

Then to add to the confusion, in order to race one needs an HTP which it seems can also provide for another interpretation.

[Peter Mallett]

Of course on reflection I may be wrong, in that if it does not require homologation papers for compliance then why bother referencing them?

[Brendan Roberts]

All the more reason for someone to be available as a referee or a point of refernce at least.Someone to pass judgement on a particular item and if/when a technical scrutineer (are there any?) queries it or applies his interpretation of appx K, the series regs, HTPs or whatever, you could show a letter from authority to demonstrate that you have tried sought approval and its all 'above board' etc. As it is we risk potentially expensive work that may or may not be accepted depending on the inetrpretation of different bodies. Even things that have been on the car for years could become an issue - I didnt have any door panels, bonnet or boot stays or hinges on my old Elite which ran like that for years......was I in breach of the regs for all that time?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Brendan Roberts

I didnt have any door panels, ............. on my old Elite which ran like that for years......was I in breach of the regs for all that time?

Only if you didn't have any carbon fibre door panels.

[terence]

1293?=Bored 1275=illegal in a Frog-eye.1.2mm overbore is what you are allowed on the usual engine.The 1275 was never available in period installed in that car,so you aint allowed to use it.God,whatever next,2.2ltr MGBs

[James Murray]

So 1.2 over bore og 948cc? Is that right Terry?

Do you think a Frogeye Sprite would be comparable with an MGB if they were both AppK spec? The power deficiency being evened out by the lighter and better handling chassis?

[terence]

Theres alway the power to weight to consider,there have been some pretty quick Frog-Eyes in the past.Handling wise,they should run rings around a "B".
Power wise I should have thought that you should realise in the region of 110 bhp if you were to go the Cooper S 1071 route[Crank.Rods.Head etc] .Keep to a legal overbore and get the weight down to whatever the homologated weight is,who knows,I might be waving as you go past!

[Al Weyman]

Years ago I had a Super 7 with a 950 'S' engine and it was a joy to drive, I have also had about 4 or 5 Mini Cooper 'S's including 950 and a tuned 1340 and the one I enjoyed most to drive was the 950 it just revved and revved and was so sweet, sometimes I think the engines at closer to the original design size seem to feel better same as I had a 327 in my Camaro once and that was the same.

[terence]

The 970s was one of the best engines of the time Al.Had a really good crank etc.

[zefarelly]

like the ford engine, they got it right on the road from the outset, I've built all sorts of experimental tunes for my road cars and ended up reverting to a near standard 1500gt, a pleasure to thrash on a daily basis!

[GORDON STREETER]

Unlike the old 1340 then Zef. I had a really tweaked up one in my Anglia van and was showing my mate how it went. I was giving it death and said to him "one day this is going to blow up" and as I finished speaking it did !
The old saying "they go best just before they die" rang true in this case.
Although a mate of mine used to race one with a steel crank (instead of the hollow chocolate one) and never had any trouble.

[terence]

Perhaps that was the Trouble with them Gordon?

[Al Weyman]

Yeah 970 not 950 thanks for correcting me, a sweet little motor indeed.

[James Murray]

Can you put a 970 or 1071 motor in a sprite though, as those engines were specifically designed to be transverse in a mini, and were never fitted to sprites.

[terence]

Jame,s,You are governed by the 1.2mm overbore size.The refference to the crank is because I belive it was cast in EN40,pretty much bullet proof.The difficulty would be in locating one!Then the alternative would be one of the new cast/knife edged version's.Nothing beyond the wit of man.

[Peter Mallett]

January issue of Octane. Tony dron tells us that Masters and Motor Racing Legends are imposing regs and post race checks for 2008. A good thing and he goes on to suggest that the response is due to the racers not the MSA etc. He gives a good explanation of why too.

[Eddy V]

A similar story in this month's Motorsport issue (and last month as well) by Andrew Frankel.
It seems there are more and more people starting to be fed up with all the trick cars. And so it should be.

[terence]

Did you not once say "Keep up Terry" for me not reading ALL of the thread