Pre 93 Touring Car Series given Championship Status for 2008

[greenamex2]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I thought they had to make a minimum number for Group N Terry? (Morning David)

There was but some really suspect practices were employed by the manufacturers to get cars through. It is not uncommon for low number of produced cars to be homologated despite there being nothing like the numbers in existence at the time of the homologation (eg my Corolla!).

[phdm]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I take it a Manta 400 would be eligiblefor this serie's??

What about an ex-ETCC Eggenberger built 1982 BMW 528i Group A ?

[greenamex2]

Most definitely in CMS, would need to know more about the mods done to it for pre-93.

Anybody got an RS1600i and a Metro Turbo, it's about all we are missing from the Group A era!

[jonners]

Just out of interest, what is the point - for amateur club racing - of the 5000 manufactured in a year rule???

What purpose does this serve? It excludes the Manta 400 (or shoves it into a 'special' class) which is a car many will associate with the period.

Also the M635csi and others.

Neither of these cars would stand a chance against an M3 of which 17,000 were produced in just over 3 years.

I remember when Pre 65's started in 1983 ['84??] and Minis were excluded because they were thought to be too fast and there was plenty of scope for them to reace elsewhere.

Why not do the same here and specifically exclude the cars everyone's worried about rather than banning certain cars for no other reason than that 5000 cars per annum was used as a benchmark for professional racing at the time?

[greenamex2]

Funnily enough jonners, that exact point has already been raised by the pre-93ers and will be brought up at the regs meeting.

I think it was originally put in place to protect people from 'homologation specials' without having to name each and every one to exclude them.

I think the idea is still relevant, perhaps the actual number needs revising.

I'll let you know what happens when it is decided.

[Al Weyman]

Just out of interest, what is the point - for amateur club racing - of the 5000 manufactured in a year rule???

Totally agree Jonners and anyhow its been flouted but because its in there IMHO it has put off some competitors (eg Jag drivers) from entering. Most stuff for the American market comfortable exceeds that. We allowed Rays 400 in to Mod Prods and I can say it did not 'run away with it' at all and we never allowed in the M3 and it was fantastic to see it out there.

[jonners]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

I think it was originally put in place to protect people from 'homologation specials' without having to name each and every one to exclude them.

I think the idea is still relevant, perhaps the actual number needs revising.

I'll let you know what happens when it is decided.

Thanks for the reply - would be interested to hear more.

One point though

This rule doesn't protect anyone against homologation specials - it's the non homologated cars that are excluded. I can understand this for current racing but not historic racing - homologation is not a concept that an amatuer enthusiast should have to relate to (in my opinion, I must stress).

The fact is some of the limited run cars are now enthusiast owned and ideal for club racing whereas the unlimited run cars are actually less interesting vehicles.

Things can get very difficult (see other threads) when historic regs follow in period regs too closely.

[Al Weyman]

Jonners I agree with that as well. All good points. We had a total of 1000 in the entire model run to be made in ModProds but we also had an exhaustive list of elligible cars that could be added to at committee approval, long winded maybe and a lot of typing :-( but it seemed to work.

[Al Weyman]

Actually the real performer and one to watch was the Sunbeam Lotus especially if they were stretched out to 2.6 and beyond. However when restricted to 2.2 as they would be here I am not so sure they would be all dominating and I doubt they would beat a good M3 or even a restricted Cossie. Also as the over size was achieved by stroking it was easy to check down the plug hole with the hemi heads!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by David J Howard

Hi Boys and Girls .

.. As Comp Sec of the CTCRC ... I am really pleased to announce to Ten Tenths that our Pre 93 Touring Car Series will be running with full MSA Championship Status next season .

This is great news ..Our Pre 93 Drivers deserve the opportunity race for a National Championship Title...

Pre 93 Touring Cars will also continue to provide that reduced cost second race entry available to our Post Historic and Group One drivers ..courtesy of BARC.

More good news is that BARC have just agreed a Second race entry fee of £100 for CTCRC Members at BARC meetings for 2008 ( a reduction from £120) ...Thanks to Dennis,Ian and Dale ..Your Support of Club Motorsport is appreciated...

Nigel Garrett and Dennis Bassom are working on the 2008 Regulations as I write.... The CTCRC Club website is still updating ..please visit in a few hours if you require more information.

David, have sent you a PM.

[John Turner]

Well, for what its worth, as a spectator, I'd love to see both Lotus Sunbeam and 635CSI. It's a shame that because they weren't homologated they are now denied the opportunity. Just over 2000 LS were built 1979-81 (I think) and as for the BMW, the works built getting on for 100 racers besides several thousand road cars. Ok, so not enough in one year, but that was then; this is now. A bit of flexibility wouldn't go amiss. Just make sure that they are straight.

[Peter Mallett]

The 635 is eligible for Group A and ran in that form with Classic Thunder IIRC.

The Lotus Sunbeam was a group 5 rally car and the mods were not suited to circuit racing.

Agreed they maybe shouldn't be restricted but then again modified saloons died a death and yet allowed those cars. Hey ho.

The CTCRC bases its pre 74 and pre 83 classes on the period regs and that gives a wide selection of cars IMO. Classic Thunder takes in the Group A era and other modifieds.

[John Turner]

Point taken Peter, but we don't see enough of the 6 series out, and the LS is just a car I always thought should be on a track. Very underrated car, but then I'm biased, having owned one.

[ascona i2000]

Originally Posted by jonners

Just out of interest, what is the point - for amateur club racing - of the 5000 manufactured in a year rule???

What purpose does this serve? It excludes the Manta 400 (or shoves it into a 'special' class) which is a car many will associate with the period.

Also the M635csi and others.

Neither of these cars would stand a chance against an M3 of which 17,000 were produced in just over 3 years.

I remember when Pre 65's started in 1983 ['84??] and Minis were excluded because they were thought to be too fast and there was plenty of scope for them to reace elsewhere.

Yeh couldnt agree more about the 5000 rule etc. I think we need to drop this to allow more scope from different cars and drivers. Lets face it the no 4x4 rule is great for keeping out alot of "specials". I was around the falken series for many years when i was young and what a thriving seriers it was with such a massive array of different machinery, the one main biggest difference between the CTCRC pre93 series and this is the 5000 rule. I know where a pukka 400 is sitting and will be out to play with CTCRC if allowed.

[terence]

So if all goe's to plan,there could be two of us out there next season?

[Al Weyman]

The Lotus Sunbeam was a group 5 rally car and the mods were not suited to circuit racing.

Don't tell that to Joss Ronchetti Peter he will never believe you whne he laps you several times. As it happens they make an excellent circuit racing car as indeed does its little brother the Ti does in the smaller classes. As Ascona will verify we had quite a few of them out in the ModProds (Falkens) and they went extremelly well just don't let them run with oversized engines!!!!!!

Pete this is pre-93 we are talking about and because of all the modern emerging technologies in the period the same things do not apply quite the same as in the earlier championships. The M3 is a good example, awesome lightweight and very tunable then there is the Cossies even with a restrictor they are very quick. I think the series minimum weight rules are far more applicable to a more modern generation of car and the older championships minimum weight formula just would not work and would mean I would have to bolt a massive amount of lead to my car to make it 140kgs heavier than it left the factory and that cannot be right as any advantage I may have running a newer car, and there aint many in the case of the Camaro if any apart from being lighter, (thats why no one has thus far raced one over here) would go out the window!

[Tim the Grey]

Rover SD1 do you Zef?
Should be one or two that haven't rotted away already...

[terence]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Rover SD1 do you Zef?
Should be one or two that haven't rotted away already...

Zef has'nt got a Flat Cap and has never smoked a pipe!

[Al Weyman]

SDI another great choice of car again but would be restricted to stock engine size and that may hold them back a bit, the really quick ones like Gerry Cain's are way beyond that with quad Dellortos etc to bring the thing alive.

[jonners]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Well, for what its worth, as a spectator, I'd love to see both Lotus Sunbeam and 635CSI. It's a shame that because they weren't homologated they are now denied the opportunity.

If the 635csi isn't eligible - having been the cornerstone of proper saloon car racing for years - then there really is something wrong.

But I don't think there's a problem with the 635csi.

What I was referring to was the M635csi.

Some might say it's too powerful/it's not fair etc etc but it isn't going to beat a well driven M3. So why rule them (and others) out?

Then there's the first generation M5 too and even the unusual 320iS.

Homologation is a nonsense anyway - everyone knows less than 5000 Lotus Cortinas were produced overall, let alone in one year...

[greenamex2]

For info there is already provision in last years regs to include cars that meet the spirit of the series but don't necessarily meet the 5000 units/groups homologation criteria.

This is being carried forward to this year regs.

Subject to committee approval, cars like the 635 would be allowed in.

So, if someone would like to submit a request to the committee it will be discussed and a response returned as quickly as possible.

[Al Weyman]

As far as the Sunbeam Lotus is concerned it 'if' allowed in it would not be able to fit the Group A narrowed Jag back axle that was only fitted to a handful of works rally cars and would have to make do with the standard Sunbeam one as per the road car (the same one fitted to the Imp engined 1.0 variant of the model and I used to blow them out in my 1700cc Ti). That would be its archilles heel so a mildly tuned 2.2 engine would be the order of the day. The standard gearbox is strong though a Getrag dogleg I believe if memory serves me right with just about the worst set of ratios you could ever imagine for a car and I think its the same one they stuffed in the CF van, however the direct top box is externally identical with proper ratios and the same case so that would be an option. Not the Jag axle and associated links though. I think if you could find a sound shell (the biggest if thus far) and a cheap near standard lump out of a Lotus I think it would make a reasonable budget car.

As far as the M635csl is concerned, it may be a brave man to want to risk one of those at this budget level of motorsport. I remember speaking with a well known BMW driver who raced with us who bought an ex-Luigi CSL and renovated it the idea being to bring it out in ModProds until someone made him a serious offer he could not refuse, his words to me were on the lines of 'If you think I am bringing out £60k's worth of race car out with you lot well think again!' :-)

[David J Howard]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Well, for what its worth, as a spectator, I'd love to see both Lotus Sunbeam and 635CSI. It's a shame that because they weren't homologated they are now denied the opportunity. Just over 2000 LS were built 1979-81 (I think) and as for the BMW, the works built getting on for 100 racers besides several thousand road cars. Ok, so not enough in one year, but that was then; this is now. A bit of flexibility wouldn't go amiss. Just make sure that they are straight.

Good Morning John ...

Within The CTCRC Regulations there is generally the opportunity to allow cars to race that may not comply with either production numbers or Homologation ..

Each case is carefully considered by our committee of 9 people headed by Tony Scott Andrews (Chief Steward of Formula 1 Fame ) Who is President of the CTCRC..

We try very hard to ensure the playing field remains level ...


Regards ...David Howard

[Tim the Grey]

Compared to what he spends on gas flowing heads already?
Or is a Flat Cap NOT a Flat Head? Oh, yes, that's a Harley!

[Tim the Grey]

Sunbeam Lotus was homologated in Group 2...
We ran out of shells 6 weeks after production ceased, the girl who scheduled the All Time Buy had NO idea that rally teams re-shell at last every year...
Yes, before I worked on Transits, I wrote the Part Catalogues for Talbot.

Just don;t ask me anything now, I left there in 1985!