ALMS/Grand Am Fusion 2014

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I suggest you check that at the door. 99% of the bashing is coming from the 'technophiles' with just a few doing most of it! And it is getting VERY BORING.

Exactly, seems more to me like any consideration that cash for sportscars doesn't come out of magic springs and so spec may be the only way to keep any series around. And sorry but that magic Audi is here so all is well line is utter BS; yeah they make an impressive as hell car but if I never saw in on the TV coverage I wouldn't even miss it in any of the races. Yes I include LM in there because drama before the sun comes up is MADE FOR TV drama for people who think LM is a serious of sprint races. And Audi seems to be more petulant with their toys than a kid, if we can't win and outspend everyone else we will take our toys elsewhere. No return on the ALMS racing so we will go to the WEC to get MORE exposure???? Sorry where was the TV coverage for the WEC races in the US, hell some of the WEC races had shorter threads than the buildup in the week before ALMS events. Even the fans on here aren't as interested in far off WEC events so it will last because??? Are we relying on wishes and fairydust? That worked for the LMS? Oh wait, even the continent most of the *****ing and whinging on here comes from couldn't give a crap and didn't have anyone willing to throw their own cash down on the table so the ALMS lasting LONGER and trying to get the P1s to work is the evil and dumb group??

Sorry but after reading through this thread and the rest of the sportscar articles I wouldn't want to sell the races to any new fans if all they get to listen to is *****ing about how much smarter the fans are than the managers. And go ahead and impose a ban for my outburst, I'm off the site until F1 starts back up again and probably won't come by the sportscar side anymore. I read about and watch sportscars to have fun and enjoy it not listen to dumbass REPETITIVE whinging so I'm just not even going to check in for the BAREST shred of new information. I'll just break down and give my money to DSC for any updates and follow Dagys.

So long and wish I could say it had been fun the whole time.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Couldn't agree more. I find it hilarious now everyone is jumping on the bandwagon of bashing the technophiles now that this spec junk is all they've got. Must be trying to placate themselves. Heaven forbid some of us be unsatisfied. A 50 car grid of mostly garbage in a merged series is still garbage. Surely there are enough manufacturers and wealthy gentlemen globally to give us one series of 25-30 interesting cars and fill up a 55 car grid a Le Mans without resorting to the spec epidemic that only accelerates the downward spiral of many series...
NASCAR - spec
Indycar - spec
ALMS/Grand Am in 2014 - 80% spec
Yuck.

F1 and WEC will be the last bastions of open development. GT3 is interesting too but the BoP politics are a ticking time bomb.

F1 is pretty limited as well, P1 clearly is the real bastion of open development. Matt Connolly (apologies if I am misattributing the quote) once referred to the ALMS as racing communism/totalitarianism because he couldn't go out and buy an R10 in the same spec as the factory (the anointed few) and compete, so there are obvious cultural and regulatory differences that can be described as being more and less free market on both sides.

My real issue is that for a nation that engineered humans to the moon we're affraid to let guys re-engineer the rear bodywork on a Riley lest someone gain an advantage.

Originally Posted by Purist

I'm not sure he specifically means on this forum, but rather, out in public in general in this country. In that broader arena, the man from Calgary is very much correct.

As for CART, engine and chassis builders were free to join the series if they wished. Grand-Am, on the other hand, has a limited number of designated car builder licenses, and these are only given out once every several years. I don't think that the engine manufacturers are on quite as tight a leash, but you might as well plan on building a 5.0-litre V8 from the start, and expect your power and torque curves to be doctored to almost perfectly match everyone elses'. The teams are allowed minimal leeway to modify the cars. In CART, a team could do a HUGE amount of modification. Even when Penske was buying Reynards, by the time his shops were done with them, there was only 5-10% interchangeability of parts between his cars and the true Reynards. There were visible differences between the cars from different teams, even if they started with the same base package, rather like what we saw with the Porsche 956/962 and all its derivations.

I'm not sure what has happened with the constructors licenses. I brought the subject up elsewhere and was told essentially told that rule might have simply disappeared, like the production-based motor clause in the early days of IMSA WSC.

Either way, I'll continue to watch, continue to push for some engineering freedom. (FWIW, I think that is on the way in 2016. A product superior to DP and P2, as well.)

Chris

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

So long and wish I could say it had been fun the whole time.

No ban from me - you're entitled to your opinion like everyone else. Bye now. Hope you enjoy F1.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

My real issue is that for a nation that engineered humans to the moon we're affraid to let guys re-engineer the rear bodywork on a Riley lest someone gain an advantage.

This is my frustration with racing in general.

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Either way, I'll continue to watch, continue to push for some engineering freedom. (FWIW, I think that is on the way in 2016. A product superior to DP and P2, as well.)

Chris

I will watch, just not with the same level of interest or passion but I do find the GT battles compelling. A new start for 2016 (not just a Gen4 DP) in the prototypes would great, and hopefully congruent with global rules. Hopefully they can find a nice formula that is financially realistic, diverse, and exciting. I think everyone is smart enough, regardless of loyalties, to realize we couldn't obsolete all the current hardware out there right off the bat, even if the product is not all that compelling.

[Maelochs]

Cracks me up that so many people take all this so personally. I don't expect everyone (or even anyone) to agree with me. I don't care either way. If I didn't enjoy the exchanges I wouldn't leave in a huff---I'd simply stop reading a thread that didn't interest me (it's what I do; I Thought it was common sense.)

What's old is people saying others' opinions are old, and then implying those people shouldn't post. But ... I can handle that. It's just the Internet.

"... seems more to me like any consideration that cash for sportscars doesn't come out of magic springs and so spec may be the only way to keep any series around. "

Actually, what people are saying is ... turning all series into spec series has mostly not worked. IndyCar and Grand Am are perfect examples.

Ausie V8, NASCAR, and DTM survive because of existing passionate support for and rivalry with certain makes of automobile. Obviously there are not huge masses of people who will paint up their trucks (and faces, sometimes) with "Lola" or "Dallara." There simply aren't culture-wide passionate rivalries about sports car racing.

I could point out that it is exactly these sorts of rivalries that give really popular sports, like football and baseball, a deep emotional appeal through broad fan bases. People think regionally, and can get emotionally involved in "My city (and team) against your city (team.") This is also what drives the Olympics.

What has tended to drive sports car racing (IMO) has been the passion for cars. Taking away any reason for that passion seems not to work and that is something that some people seem to dismiss.

If going all-spec is the only way to save sports car racing ... I am reminded of that Viet Nam communique about "We had to destroy the village to save it."

And look, I am typing this from Daytona International Speedway, where I just spent three day sat the Roar Before the 24. I am not some rabid anti-Rolex delusionist. I am worried that going more towards spec cars will not save the sport.

I can see the need for cost control, and for having specs frozen for several years so teams can run the same chassis and engine for long enough to amortize the costs. I can also see that taking away the hot-rod spirit and offering only generic cars might not generate enough revenue regardless of how low costs are.

Let's not forget, if revenue is high, costs can also be high and a business can still make money.

I don't want people to take the wrong lesson form the failure of certain sports car series. Management woes and under-capitalization seem to have crippled and then killed an otherwise popular series, while an unpopular series survived by cash transfusions.

Pretending that the surviving series must have the only viable business model when it was never viable seems not to be wise.

In any case ... it was great to see cars out on track competing and it is always good to hear the engines roar.

By the way ... people only post their opinions when others post theirs. It is impossible for one person to be stubborn in a discussion---someone has to be stubbornly supporting the opposing view as well.

If we were all sitting around a campfire at the end of a racing weekend we would all be a little friendlier ... and just as stubborn. It's all right. No need to get worked up. It's just the faceless nature of the Internet.

[Aysedasi]

For me - that's what I call a great post. Thank you.

[Speed-King]

Well, you guys should like this:

Talk was that the Ford EcoBoost was going to be legal for THIS season. That was before the merger came into play. DP's will have more horsepower and more aero next year. Expect to see more manufacturers come on board in the DP class next year due to their being able to introduce their own chassis, bodywork and turbocharging. This car is scratching the surface of what the DP class will become.

From the GA Unleashed Facebook page on the subject of Shank's EcoBoost DP.

[gregtummer]

But will they be performance balanced to run even with the other cars? That is the question and the point we are trying to make.

Look, manufacturers can show up with the Audi R18 E Tron Quattro but if the rulebook is going to performance balance it to the Gremlin road car that is racing in the same class, then there really is no point.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

But will they be performance balanced to run even with the other cars? That is the question and the point we are trying to make.

Look, manufacturers can show up with the Audi R18 E Tron Quattro but if the rulebook is going to performance balance it to the Gremlin road car that is racing in the same class, then there really is no point.

I guess it's safe to say that they won't be allowed to blow the privateers out of the water the way they are doing it in WEC... and then - they might of course still be limited to selling customer cars.

[arakis]

Simply put DPs are spec sports cars which is a oxymoron. In other words they are not sports cars and thus do not keep the sport alive. If this becomes the prevailing formula then quite simply Sports Cars are dead...

The so called technophiles are the fans of the spot wich has eveoleved over the course of ~90 years. And sports car racing was never about spec cars.

Wanna watch spec cars with fake equalisaton and fake yellows, then watch NASCAR, I don't see any reason why we have to endure, or like the BS that is being shoved down our throuts about cash problems, and how spec will fix it...

I would rather watch 3 manufacturers duke it out at Le Mans and 3-4 races then 10 DP manufacturers (which are in reality the same) fight over 30 races....

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by arakis

Simply put DPs are spec sports cars which is a oxymoron. In other words they are not sports cars and thus do not keep the sport alive. If this becomes the prevailing formula then quite simply Sports Cars are dead...

The so called technophiles are the fans of the spot wich has eveoleved over the course of ~90 years. And sports car racing was never about spec cars.

Wanna watch spec cars with fake equalisaton and fake yellows, then watch NASCAR, I don't see any reason why we have to endure, or like the BS that is being shoved down our throuts about cash problems, and how spec will fix it...

I would rather watch 3 manufacturers duke it out at Le Mans and 3-4 races then 10 DP manufacturers (which are in reality the same) fight over 30 races....

Really, does not P-1 have tech specs that they have to be within? There is no such thing as, open rule racing, anywhere, anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Except Bonneville (per se).




L.P.

[gregtummer]

I have absolutely no problems with giving privateers help when they are going up against manufacturers. I think WEC should let privateers run 50-100kgs lighter and in 2014 give them 10-20% more fuel consumption.

But privateers vs. privateers should not be equalized to each other and
manufactures vs. other manufacturers should not be equalized.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

But privateers vs. privateers should not be equalized to each other and
manufactures vs. other manufacturers should not be equalized.

What does that mean? Rules in Motorsport, no matter how loosely or tightly controlled are designed to give manufacturers and teams an equal footing to race on. In GT3 they achieve it by doing car-by-car BoP, in manufacturer-oriented P1 for 2014 they do it through energy limit allocations, weights and tire size. In IMSA of the eighties it was car weight, engine displacement, turbo-inlet restrictors, boost level regulations and so on. It has always been thus.

Chris

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

What does that mean? Rules in Motorsport, no matter how loosely or tightly controlled are designed to give manufacturers and teams an equal footing to race on. In GT3 they achieve it by doing car-by-car BoP, in manufacturer-oriented P1 for 2014 they do it through energy limit allocations, weights and tire size. In IMSA of the eighties it was car weight, engine displacement, turbo-inlet restrictors, boost level regulations and so on. It has always been thus.

Chris

Can-Am, Formula Libre... Trololol.

[PatrickB]

If i want to watch great sportscar racing I watch the Rolex series.
If i want to watch inovation and technology I watch discovery channel...

I dont really see much practical technology coming from the WEC or LM. Hell lately most tech(hybrids, direct injection etc) has come out in road cars before it goes to Lemans.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by PatrickB

If i want to watch great sportscar racing I watch the Rolex series.

Tell me how this is different than NASCAR.

[Scooter185]

How many hybrids are currently generating their own energy by recovering it under braking?

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Look, manufacturers can show up with the Audi R18 E Tron Quattro but if the rulebook is going to performance balance it to the Gremlin road car that is racing in the same class, then there really is no point.

I really want to watch a race of the current R18s and their driver squads with the cars being slowed to the pace of a Gremlin through various measures.

This is not sarcasm either.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

I really want to watch a race of the current R18s and their driver squads with the cars being slowed to the pace of a Gremlin through various measures.

This is not sarcasm either.

I'd enjoy the hell outta that too.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Really, does not P-1 have tech specs that they have to be within? There is no such thing as, open rule racing, anywhere, anymore!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Except Bonneville (per se).




L.P.

Hmm, there are always levels.. While one promotes chalanges by witch varius manufacturers can develop their cars into being the fasterst, the other strangles any form of development..

See by haveing a strict ruleset and leaving enough room in the rules where the manufacturers can develop their cars you are promoting inovation, developmanet, and competition.

By haveing a ruleset saying everyone has to run exacly the same cars or if they are not they will be administered into being the same. you are promoting absolutly nothing but Show, and driver competiton.

If I wanna watch driver talent I'll watch single seater spec series, or other single driver spec series...I , nor the majoraty of sports car fans watch sprtsc cars for show, and driver talent. They watch frikin Manufacturers fight it out...

The biggest diff between ACO rules, and DP rules is that in DP the drivers take centar point... In ACO rules the Manufacturers (or racecar builders) take centar point... I could no care less about what driver wins a race in the race I watch, as long as he is sitting behind the wheel of a Ferrari...

[WolfsburgRS]

While I grant that the DP class is (currently) not one which inspires a whole lot of passion, one should not necessarily condemn the future based on the past. Yes Nascar has had some issues and yes nascar has this tendency towards certain manufactured elements of excitment, BUT, it seems they may also be learning.

It's business, adapt or die. Their numbers are down, fans are not all that into their one-car-fits-all style they've had for the past few years, so they're heading back into the direction of cars actually looking different. Nascar isn't perfect, but as a business and motorsport sanctioning body it's what we've got. Different motors, displacements, turbos and NA is going to (hopefully) make the future that much more interesting in DP, if they can loosen the reigns enough to make a difference.

And for those who say that GrandAm doesn't allow for flexibility, I ask you about the GAGT and GX classes. The GX Caymans for example, are being built in the spirit of the true hot-rod mentality. Maybe it's more money than an average backyard build, but the ones I've been reading about have dipped in the GT3 cup / 911 parts bins for suspension pieces, motor, etc, which I dare say you certainly can't do in ACO GT racing. Same with GAGT - the GAGT Porsches use a bunch of RSR parts. Hot rods, same as they ever were.

Yes there will be some performance balancing, there has to be. But aside from the very very earliest of years of motorsport there has always been some kind of limitation, some kind of specification to follow, something to try and make things a little more 'fair', if there is such a thing. Even in those precious golden years of GTP there was an awful lot of performance balancing going on. Weight. Inlet restrictors, aero changes. Did people care? The competitors sure, because everybody wants an advantage; nobody wants to be slower than the next guy. The fans? Maybe a few anoraks but most people sat back and enjoyed the show.

It's racing. It's entertainment for some, it's a business for others, and before we all condemn something which hasn't even been fully formed, I think it's worth taking a step back to allow ourselves a bit less pessimism about the whole thing.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by WolfsburgRS

While I grant that the DP class is (currently) not one which inspires a whole lot of passion, one should not necessarily condemn the future based on the past. Yes Nascar has had some issues and yes nascar has this tendency towards certain manufactured elements of excitment, BUT, it seems they may also be learning.

It's business, adapt or die. Their numbers are down, fans are not all that into their one-car-fits-all style they've had for the past few years, so they're heading back into the direction of cars actually looking different. Nascar isn't perfect, but as a business and motorsport sanctioning body it's what we've got. Different motors, displacements, turbos and NA is going to (hopefully) make the future that much more interesting in DP, if they can loosen the reigns enough to make a difference.

And for those who say that GrandAm doesn't allow for flexibility, I ask you about the GAGT and GX classes. The GX Caymans for example, are being built in the spirit of the true hot-rod mentality. Maybe it's more money than an average backyard build, but the ones I've been reading about have dipped in the GT3 cup / 911 parts bins for suspension pieces, motor, etc, which I dare say you certainly can't do in ACO GT racing. Same with GAGT - the GAGT Porsches use a bunch of RSR parts. Hot rods, same as they ever were.

Yes there will be some performance balancing, there has to be. But aside from the very very earliest of years of motorsport there has always been some kind of limitation, some kind of specification to follow, something to try and make things a little more 'fair', if there is such a thing. Even in those precious golden years of GTP there was an awful lot of performance balancing going on. Weight. Inlet restrictors, aero changes. Did people care? The competitors sure, because everybody wants an advantage; nobody wants to be slower than the next guy. The fans? Maybe a few anoraks but most people sat back and enjoyed the show.

It's racing. It's entertainment for some, it's a business for others, and before we all condemn something which hasn't even been fully formed, I think it's worth taking a step back to allow ourselves a bit less pessimism about the whole thing.

L.P.

[arakis]

Sometimes sitting back and checiking out if it works out is just not good enough.. If they lay out a concept that is 180 degrees from what I love about sports cars then I have to speak from the bottom of my soul against it..

Plain and simple DPs are not sports cars, and if this becomes the top sports cars scene in America, then America doesn't have a sports car scene, as far as I am concerned.

The only thing they;ll have is yet another spec car series the states are full of anyway, and people are gonna show about as much interest in it as they have for DP up to now.

Thank god for WEC and Le Mans, for staying true to their core values..

I guess we simply have to face the fact that sports cars in the States died the second ALMS was sold to NASCAR (which was kinda obvious). Now all that's left is to watch the lest season of ALMS and remenese on the past. Oh and get your "told you so's" ready for when this abomination falls flat on it's face...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by arakis

Sometimes sitting back and checiking out if it works out is just not good enough.. If they lay out a concept that is 180 degrees from what I love about sports cars then I have to speak from the bottom of my soul against it..

Plain and simple DPs are not sports cars, and if this becomes the top sports cars scene in America, then America doesn't have a sports car scene, as far as I am concerned.

The only thing they;ll have is yet another spec car series the states are full of anyway, and people are gonna show about as much interest in it as they have for DP up to now.

Thank god for WEC and Le Mans, for staying true to their core values..

I guess we simply have to face the fact that sports cars in the States died the second ALMS was sold to NASCAR (which was kinda obvious). Now all that's left is to watch the lest season of ALMS and remenese on the past. Oh and get your "told you so's" ready for when this abomination falls flat on it's face...

what do prototypes matter to you anyway? all you are about are those nutjobs in the ferraris, which there will be plenty of in The New Series.

[rwindle]

How many of you gentlemen are actually paying to develop/manufacture/field a team in any of the series being discussed? Or, how many of you gentlemen operate a racing series that must balance the wants/needs of the fans, teams, manufacturers and share holders?

Those individuals/corporations are the ones who decide the rules by which the game is played. I'll decide if the product they put on the track is worth my devotion.

I will say this, until there is a single supremo being controlling Endurance Racing it will not generate the global interest enjoyed by F1. I'm not saying Emperor Bernie is good for racing, but F1 does have the fan base that all other racing series would kill for.