ALMS/Grand Am Fusion 2014

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Ncrdbl1

I think there is also something else that many are leaving out. Most GT3 series have some form of equalization formulas which make it irrational for manufacturers over spend in development. Doesn't make sense to spend millions to gain 30 more HP if the series is just going to adjust your air inlet or RPM limit to reduce it back down again. Which is why the cost of GT3 has been kept somewhat in check compared to other classes. Also why it is the fast growing class in the world. As long as the major series retain these equalization formulas cost will be held somewhat in check. For US racing the GT3 is the obvious choice.

GTE is performance balanced as well, and that hasn't been entirely well received by the entrants and fans alike.

Originally Posted by Salamus

I do remember reading somewhere that Lotus are to enter their Evora in Grand-Am, though I'm not sure if GT or GX.

GX has been the plan at least from early summer. Also, it is a customer effort entirely, much like the AJR program has evolved into.

I know of one other manufacturer to compete with them, Mazda has committed their Skyactiv-D 2.0 litre turbo-diesel. There have been rumours of an Audi and a Porsche Cayman (built by a private entrant). I'd like to see both - keeping my fingers crossed, but not holding my breath.

Chris

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Ncrdbl1

Like it or not road racing has always been a clique sport in the US.

Niche sport, not clique sport.

It has a long history of one failed series after another. If it is is to ever make inroads into mainstream motorsports it must be more attractive to the US racing fan.

It really isn't that there hasn't been fans in various incarnations of the series, well except those such as DP, Can Am II and WSC.

You can look down your nose at the NASCAR business model all you want, but it is the most successful form of racing in the world.

Please, not even close. F1 is by far and away more successful, that you would suggest NASCAR is telling.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

GTE is performance balanced as well, and that hasn't been entirely well received by the entrants and fans alike.



GX has been the plan at least from early summer. Also, it is a customer effort entirely, much like the AJR program has evolved into.

I know of one other manufacturer to compete with them, Mazda has committed their Skyactiv-D 2.0 litre turbo-diesel. There have been rumours of an Audi and a Porsche Cayman (built by a private entrant). I'd like to see both - keeping my fingers crossed, but not holding my breath.

Chris

I read today that the Mazda diesel may be in a new Mazda 6. Don't know how I feel about a true sedan (saloon) racing with the Lotus in GX. No wait, I know exactly how I feel - I don't like it! That being said, hopefully that will be a 1 year program with the full effort put behind the P2 engine that will be running in the combined series in 2014. (that last part was just wishful thinking on my part, but hey I can dream!)

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Niche sport, not clique sport.



It really isn't that there hasn't been fans in various incarnations of the series, well except those such as DP, Can Am II and WSC.






Please, not even close. F1 is by far and away more successful, that you would suggest NASCAR is telling.

The next reply will be, "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts."

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

I personally think 2 classes of GT racing for the US market is the correct path (as a business person, a driver, and a fan): GTE and GT3. GT3 requiring Pro-Am driver pairings and probably being on a spec tire to control the pace and keep tire contracts in-play.

Of course, that will never happen and it makes me angry because it's for 2 simple reasons:

1) 6 current GT teams (off the top of my head) would be required to get new cars.
2) Grand-Am's roll-cage regulations.

I think we're seeing a once in a generation opportunity to create one of the best road racing series in the world (let alone the US) and it's not going to happen because of those 2 points. It's a shame the folks pulling the strings don't take nearly the risks that drivers and teams do to create something awesome.

Oh well. I suppose if they were smart, they wouldn't be trying to make a business out of motorsport.

-mike

Great strategy for the GT classes. I think inclusion of GT3 (with regular roll cages) on spec tires and pro/am format would keep them out of the way of the GTE cars. Have you sent this idea to Scott Elkins and his counterpart at GrandAm who are soliciting ideas for the merger? To me this is the best possible solution to the GT class structure.


In an effort to steer the discussion to a new topic, does anybody else have ideas on GT class structure and rules? What about prototypes?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Ncrdbl1

There is one major difference that you seem to have forgotten. I NEVER accused the Audi of being a fake Audi in name only. Which is exactly what was done with the Corvette DP. There just seems to be a built in prejudice on this board. Your series is super superior to everything else and nothing else is worthy of existing. Some of you cannot accept that there hasn't been a national series running ACO rules that hasn't failed. They ACO format is just too fiscally prohibited to operate without massive manufacturer support. ILMC dead, Asian LMS dead but will be tried again next season, ELMS didn't complete it's schedule due to lack of cars. The series who are making it are the one which focus on fiscal responsibility.

Except that the Audi IS an Audi. Designed, developed, built by Audi and their engineers. It is run by Audi, marketed by Audi.

The "Corvette" DP had exactly what designed by GM/Pratt & Miller? An engine and a skin, that is placed on a variety of different companies chassis. Kind of comparable to the tube frame GT's that were Pontiacs/Camaros/whatever they became. If that is snobbery, so be it. Such cars were acceptable in the seventies and eighties, but chassis technology suggests we don't need tube frame in GT's now. It's kind of like those kit cars that put Ferrari bodies on 240Zs or Fieros... looked a bit like a Ferrari, but weren't really Ferraris.

The series that are making it are the one which focus on fiscal responsibility? The one?

No, far from it. They are the ones that provide an acceptable return on investment, that don't require sanction subsidies to survive. The cost is not, and has not been an issue at any point, in any series. I'm not sure why you are so stubborn about simply saying cost, again, and again.

But i do agree with you the DP will never be at Goodwood and i am glad of that. I do not give a rat's asp about what happens at Goodwood. For you in Europe more power to you. Enjoy your sport car history and relive it with pride. But we are not talking about EUROPEAN SPORTS CAR RACING here. The discussion is about US sport car racing. What happens at Goodwood is irrelevant to US road racing.

The problem is that you've completely missed the point, or chosen to completely ignore it. Fair enough, let's change it to the Monterey Historics, car shows, North American Auctions in the future. These are not cars, nor will they ever be cars for car fanatics. The car has to be part of the equation, and is one of the reason that the DP formula has failed.

Here is a secret that many people in here either do not know or refuse to accept. Road racing is a MINOR for of motorsports in the US. It has had a long history of series failures. No series is going to be anything more than a minor part of US motorsports unless you make it more attractive to US motorsports patron.

I agree, so you actually need it to be attractive. It needs to be cars that attract people, as they did with Can Am, IMSA GTP and ALMS. It needs to be marketed correctly, like F1 and NASCAR. Sure, lessons need to be learned here... on both sides. While fans are relatively meaningless in the conversation, the inability to admit the faults, guarantees you will fail again.

The IMSA/ALMS/ACO connection understand building cars and rules that appeal to manufacturers and fans alike. NASCAR understands marketing and focuses on cost containment. Both sides need to sit down in a room, with a firm understanding of their strengths, what they bring to the table, and come up with a solution that can address the errors of all the previous formulas. Cost is only ever in question when there is a absence of value. NASCAR costs far more to run, Indy costs more to run, F1 costs far more to run, but in every case they provide value to the costs involved. You cannot simply make the product cheap and expect to sell it, there has to be a balance.

[Catingaround]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

I personally think 2 classes of GT racing for the US market is the correct path (as a business person, a driver, and a fan): GTE and GT3. GT3 requiring Pro-Am driver pairings and probably being on a spec tire to control the pace and keep tire contracts in-play.

Of course, that will never happen and it makes me angry because it's for 2 simple reasons:

1) 6 current GT teams (off the top of my head) would be required to get new cars.
2) Grand-Am's roll-cage regulations.

I think we're seeing a once in a generation opportunity to create one of the best road racing series in the world (let alone the US) and it's not going to happen because of those 2 points. It's a shame the folks pulling the strings don't take nearly the risks that drivers and teams do to create something awesome.

Oh well. I suppose if they were smart, they wouldn't be trying to make a business out of motorsport.

-mike

Originally Posted by joeb

Great strategy for the GT classes. I think inclusion of GT3 (with regular roll cages) on spec tires and pro/am format would keep them out of the way of the GTE cars. Have you sent this idea to Scott Elkins and his counterpart at GrandAm who are soliciting ideas for the merger? To me this is the best possible solution to the GT class structure.

I love this idea for GT as well, I think the two classes need to be easy to distinguish from each other, maybe with a bright windshield banner on GT3?

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Ncrdbl1

Just because the rest of the world drink warm beer and watch soccer doesn't mean the US sports fan will do the same.

I like warm beer and soccer...

[broadrun96]

A good ale is always best warm, but then how often can you find a good one? Course I guess warming Bud Light isnt a smart move even when drunk.

Back on to the topic at hand, can all parties go back to the corners and stop whipping them out to measure. Guess what NEITHER series would have made it without an agreement, sadly each had what the other needed but doesn't feel like that will help long for them even together. Something will prob rise again, just will enjoy whatever is out there. Sadly I'm more concerned we get some new blood in the booth or RLM and the new series work something out cause I REALLY can't keep watching either series without Hindy and Shaw to balance the coverage.

[HJJ]

Long day, a read few back pages and it's piddling. Mr. NcRdb1, you are playing in pool that you don't know the depths of. You could be phishing from a Grand Sham forum, I don't know nor do I care.

What did the France family buy, they bought crowd. something that G/A doesn't really have. Something that they can parlay because of Nascar TV rights to get S/C racing on a bigger platform then it already is.

Jim France told Don Panoz that they want the ACO link to continue. Call me foolish, but I believe that.

Chill. A lot will be worked out before Daytona '14.

Remember, they (Nascar) are playing for the ALMS TV contact next year, don't you thing they want to maybe improve that to get better rights fees in 2014. Say all races split between Speed and espn2

And Mr. Hedlund input as a gentleman driver is some of best input you can get here if you ignore the noise. That segment of the market will drive the grid more than an LMP1 class.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Mike Hedlund

I personally think 2 classes of GT racing for the US market is the correct path (as a business person, a driver, and a fan): GTE and GT3. GT3 requiring Pro-Am driver pairings and probably being on a spec tire to control the pace and keep tire contracts in-play.

Of course, that will never happen and it makes me angry because it's for 2 simple reasons:

1) 6 current GT teams (off the top of my head) would be required to get new cars.
2) Grand-Am's roll-cage regulations.

I think we're seeing a once in a generation opportunity to create one of the best road racing series in the world (let alone the US) and it's not going to happen because of those 2 points. It's a shame the folks pulling the strings don't take nearly the risks that drivers and teams do to create something awesome.

Oh well. I suppose if they were smart, they wouldn't be trying to make a business out of motorsport.

-mike

Your opening paragraph is spot on. If we lose a couple of GT teams to make the new product stronger, so be it, rather than diluting the integrity of the series. Sounds like they are willing to drop the LMPC teams, so what's the difference? The Camaro is moot now anyways with factory GT Corvette team. The RX8 is end of life. There, most tube frame GT's handled. What becomes less clear is the remaining classes for the first couple of transitional years. Do we really need a Mazda 6 in the series? No, go Continental series. It is 100% posiitive they are embracing new propulsion technologies to give credit where it's due. How attractive is an LMP/Deltawing/DP class to fans on both sides or manufacturers? It is a mess, only tolerable if the light at the end of the tunnel is relevant to anyone. We need to know the framework for the final, long term class strategy ASAP. Best case - this is a fantastic opportunity. Worst case - we get some disenfranchised owners start up a new series. This could be comprised of Pickett, Dyson, Dempsey, Fernandez, Tucker, Risi, and the non-Corvette DP teams that aren't funded by NASCAR, just to throw a few potential names out.

[DeathOrGlory]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...cus-13511.html
No surprises, Grand Am announces classes remain the same with the addition of GX for 2013. Interesting to see a Lotus pictured?

The Evora is the first car to go to the GX class for next year.

[DeathOrGlory]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Maybe you should stick to your ovals, we aren't buying what you're selling. Many road racing fans are students of the history of the sport.

So you don't consider racing in ovals racing? I like racing in ovals too, does that make road racing fans who also like ovals...

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by DeathOrGlory

So you don't consider racing in ovals racing? I like racing in ovals too, does that make road racing fans who also like ovals...

Not what I said, I just don't meet a lot of people who follow both, it's one or the other for the most part.

[DeathOrGlory]

Well I used to don't really like oval racing, but on hindsight, it was a dumb move on my part because I like racing, and that ability to appreciate no matter what track, series, or spec is more important to me now than just tooting your horn and riding your high horse on how great your favored series is and damn the rest.

Of course when things go wrong I also get ****ed off about it, but most of us here are operating on assumptions that this ends up in a war of words, instead of a real dialogue of sharing of ideas. I'm willing to give both parties rope to play with, whether they use it well or hang themselves with it we'll know come 2014.

Mr. Hedlund has a good idea on GT, 2 classes ought to be there. GAGT+GTC+GT3 will likely be a Pro-Am class, and GTE will stick to manufacturers. P1 is sadly too proprietary for their own good, at least we know Honda/HPD and Porsche has the ability to sell cars to customers, but will they with their 2014 cars? Heck, will Honda/HPD even bankroll Wirth Research for the 2014 LMP1 car? Audi will lend(but will strangle the heck out of it in the case of Kolles), Pug will lend (but will bankrupt you if ****e happens), and I don't know about Toyota (All Toyota endurance teams in the past are connected to the Toyota factory: TOMS, SARD, TTE/TMG). Nissan used to do that in Group C, but they only sell older chassis and they only raced in the JSPC.

[MagVanisher]

You can look down your nose at the NASCAR business model all you want, but it is the most successful form of racing in the world.

You know what, tell it to the F1 crowd instead...

Anyways, back to the topic!

Originally Posted by Catingaround

I love this idea for GT as well, I think the two classes need to be easy to distinguish from each other, maybe with a bright windshield banner on GT3?

How about adding yellow tint on the headlights to Grand-AM GT Pro-Am cars just like the GT300 class from Super GT. That would distinguish even more!

Still, it would be nice if GX is integrated to Grand-AM GT... Then again, it will remain as a separate class.

[DeathOrGlory]

Once this merged series rolls on, I think they should head to the Hermanos Rodriguez track in Mexico City. Rojas (supported by Telmex), Diaz, Gonzales and of course Adrian Fernandez are very competitive drivers (not to mention champions) and the Mexican race fans deserve to see them all in action.

And if they will continue the NAEC as a mini-championship, they should increase the races in it from the current 3, I'm feeling...

Daytona, Sebring, Laguna 6 Hours, Sahlen's 6 Hours of the Glen, Indy/VIR 240/Road America 4 Hours, Petit.

Though as I said earlier that if the whole championship was named the North American Endurance Championship, I would like that as well.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by DeathOrGlory

Though as I said earlier that if the whole championship was named the North American Endurance Championship, I would like that as well.

Agree, that would be a great name. I don't want to see the name as a mashup of the two current series - lets leave those in the past.

So in summary, in the last 2 pages we have come up with the GT class structure and a name for the new series. That just leaves two more boxes to check off, proto classes and schedule. This could turn out alright!

[seanyb505]

Originally Posted by DeathOrGlory

Daytona, Sebring, Laguna 6 Hours, Sahlen's 6 Hours of the Glen, Indy/VIR 240/Road America 4 Hours, Petit.

Is there anyone here who doesn't think this is an excellent starting point for a schedule? Maybe throw in a COTA, a Canadian round, another western round or two, several large city downtown type exhibitions...Would make for a great road racing calendar.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by DeathOrGlory

And if they will continue the NAEC as a mini-championship, they should increase the races in it from the current 3, I'm feeling...

Daytona, Sebring, Laguna 6 Hours, Sahlen's 6 Hours of the Glen, Indy/VIR 240/Road America 4 Hours, Petit.

Though as I said earlier that if the whole championship was named the North American Endurance Championship, I would like that as well.

That is a great name but I think the American SportsCar Championship (ASC or ASCC) is a more realistic name. They did emphasize the word "American" a lot.

[fieldodreams79]

RE recent schedule posts: I am not sold on COTA until I have actually seen a race there...Make Road America a 500 miler, and go to Mosport. Then you got schedule. Sure, COTA could be an attraction as it should be a world class facility, but it is possible that the WEC could take that over and it is VERY possible that the circuit itself could be a bore, based on previous "renditions".

[HORNDAWG]

Today

**** TIME CHANGE *****MWM Wed 25th September
Because of our top story we are breaking with tradition and starting the show at 19:28 UK there's a very good reason for this...

We have been aware of this week's big sportscar story for some time but are not the sort of people to break confidences. However by 7.30PM UK Wednesday we should be able to bring you something of great interest to you our listeners.

Wonder what?



Also:
http://www.lemans.org/en/races/24h/u...medium=twitter




L.P.

[DeathOrGlory]

So, lets look at the ALMS and Grand Am tracks:

ALMS
Sebring
Mid-Ohio
Laguna
VIR
Road America
Road Atlanta
Long Beach
Baltimore
Lime Rock
Mosport

Grand-Am
Daytona
Barber
New Jersey
Road America
Mid-Ohio
Montreal
Indy
Watkins Glen
Lime Rock
Laguna
Belle Isle
Miami-Homestead

Marquee events:
Daytona
Sebring
Petit Le Mans
Sahlen's 6 Hours
Indy 3 hours (NAEC)
Laguna 6 Hours

There is overlap between the 2 series:
Road America
Mid-Ohio
Lime Rock
VIR
Laguna

Possible additional venues:
CoTA
Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez


Here's the current pool of tracks. Feel free to add and suggest. 12 races ain't gonna be enough for this party.

[DeathOrGlory]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Today

**** TIME CHANGE *****MWM Wed 25th September
Because of our top story we are breaking with tradition and starting the show at 19:28 UK there's a very good reason for this...

We have been aware of this week's big sportscar story for some time but are not the sort of people to break confidences. However by 7.30PM UK Wednesday we should be able to bring you something of great interest to you our listeners.

Wonder what?



Also:
http://www.lemans.org/en/races/24h/u...medium=twitter




L.P.

Now things has become a little more complicated.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Today

**** TIME CHANGE *****MWM Wed 25th September
Because of our top story we are breaking with tradition and starting the show at 19:28 UK there's a very good reason for this...

We have been aware of this week's big sportscar story for some time but are not the sort of people to break confidences. However by 7.30PM UK Wednesday we should be able to bring you something of great interest to you our listeners.

Wonder what?



Also:
http://www.lemans.org/en/races/24h/u...medium=twitter




L.P.

I'm sure going by recent standards someone will break the 7.30pm embargo. You have to imagine it is something US-based given that timing...