Tom Pryce and the 'Lost Generation'

[chunterer]

Having seen Dan Rear's thread on Richard Croucher and his reference to the excellent 'The Lost Generation' book by D Tremayne, I too have this excellent book and one thing in particular has stood out from the stories of the 3 drivers; Roger Williamson, Tom Pryce and Tony Brise.

All 3 guys were mega talented and one must surely ask the question speculatively, that if they had lived would James Hunt and more significantly Nigel Mansell have had such success in F1?

It seem that Tom Pryce was considered as an outstanding natural talent comparable to Ronnie Peterson and still very much learning after he got to F1 putting in strong drives in Shadow's.

He, along with Roger W and Tony B may well have continued into the 80's and that might have meant Nigel missing out on a drive....

How the top driver line ups into the mid 80's may have been so different!
We might have had Tom in a JPS instead of Ronnie, Roger looked like he was McLaren bound at the time James did go there and Tony had hardly begun his career and whilst we don't know how the Hill outfit might have developed, Tony could conceivably have ended up driving for Bernie's Brabham team as he was a fan.

Discuss!!

[Davhut]

Wild speculation...I love it!
Where does one start? I think to a large degree successful champions "make their own luck," and this certainly applies to dying in a race car. The lucky one's don't.
Weirdly unpredictable events killed each one:
an unskilled marshall with a big bottle, another marshall without one and a plane crash in the fog.
Tom Pryce was a talent for sure, but hampered by the Shadows and not especially more successful from the March, Lotus, Ensign drivers of the day, in roughly equal equipment. Williamson was too new in F1 to judge, but certainly also hampered by the chassis, and Brise, while spectacular in smaller classes (his drive at LBGP beating Mario and Redman was something to see) would have been equally disadvantaged by his small and usually cash-strapped team. Perhaps while each would have moved on to better teams, their developmental skills were sadly left unproven.
An argument can be made that Hunt and Mansell, while building their early careers were largely unspectacular, made their luck and graduated to championship status by luck, skill and perseverance. Oh, and they didn't die on the way up.
Those of you who enjoyed this book will also fall into early US Champ Car history in Brock Yates' Against Death and Time, now in paperback. Fabulous chronicles of the early post WWII veterans back in the US and ready to race. I couldn't put it down.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Discuss!!

I was given two copies of the book for Christmas ! Its a great read, but I enjoyed it more for the much deeper insight it gave into the trials and tribulations, personal and otherwise, of an aspiring racing driver in the 1970s. Tremayne must have gone to great lengths to authenticate his information and obtain pictures never seen before from the families. Its an excellent book for the nostalgist.

... as for the 'what might have been' ? Mark Hughes has done it lots of times in Autosport as well with Villeneuve, Peterson etc... I think its a complete waste of time to go down that road. Its like saying Buddy Holly would have been bigger than Elvis. We'll just never know.

What we should concentrate on is what these three did achieve, and how they achieved it. I think that's probably more heart warming for the bereaved left behind as well.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Its like saying Buddy Holly would have been bigger than Elvis.

Only if he changed his diet to burger for breakfast, brunch, lunch, dinner, supper and nightcap.

Brise massacred Alan Jones as his team-mate and Jonesy went on to the world title. Pryce would have suffered under ground effect and media attention but I bet he'd've won in a Sharrows in later 77 or 78. Williamson may have stayed with Wheatcroft in which case he'd've been out-budgeted but had he gone somewhere like Lotus he'd've been a champ.

[Anuauto]

I mentioned that I had just finished reading the Tremayne book when I was talking to Jimmy Fuller in Antigua last month about various Brabhams for the Chassis History Thread. JF ran in UK F3 in 1973 and was apparently a friend of Tom Pryce (and James Hunt, who had stayed with them there). He immediately volunteered the opinion that Tony Brise was in a different league to all the others (and that was said despite also claiming TB allegedly had a very significant air box "advantage" in one race with a similar Holbay engine to JF...so he had reason NOT to praise him).
That set me thinking that maybe the only people who can really assess other drivers ability (as opposed to success) are those on the track with them in the same formula - even if being lapped rather than dicing with them.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Anuauto

That set me thinking that maybe the only people who can really assess other drivers ability (as opposed to success) are those on the track with them in the same formula - even if being lapped rather than dicing with them.

Well John Watson (a competitor of all of them I think?) is quoted in the book. He sais something along the lines of Tom being a fantastic natural talent and a charger that was definitely going places and I guess from that he was intimating that the Welshman was better than him.

I always remember the comment JW also made about Ayrton Senna when he came up against him. John's always been a good source of a quote and I just wonder if he saw these two as the best drivers he saw in his time in F1?

I'm interested in all this because whilst aware of their names, I hadn't realised just how good RW, TP and TB were.

[Al Weyman]

Maybe they were quick because they pushed the thing beyond the envolope and the cars physical capabilities and death or serious injury was an inevitable consequense. I have often thought this when I hear these sort of discussions unless of cause it was a complete mechanical component failure like Senna's. Canny drivers like Jackie Stewart were quick without wringing the cars neck and taking too many risks every time they raced it.

[Alan Raine]

All 3 could of gone onto bigger things, given the breaks. They all had the talent.

I have to agree with ensigns comments. Tom Pryce was in the Peterson mould. A fantastic balls out driver who perhaps drove around problems rather than fixing them, which in ground effect days may have caused him problems. Roger Williamson never really showed his full potential but had enthusiastic backing from Tom Wheatcroft which could have placed him with one of the better teams. The night before the British GP he was playing on the dodgems at the Silverstone funfair, which perhaps isn't the best thing to do before your first Grand Prix.

Of the 3 of them IMHO Tony Brise had the most potential. He seemed to have all the ingredients required to go to the top. Fast and a bit of a thinker with a personality to match.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Maybe they were quick because they pushed the thing beyond the envolope and the cars physical capabilities and death or serious injury was an inevitable consequense. I have often thought this when I hear these sort of discussions unless of cause it was a complete mechanical component failure like Senna's. Canny drivers like Jackie Stewart were quick without wringing the cars neck and taking too many risks every time they raced it.

Al, I'm not sure if that's relevant here as Tom Pryce hit a marshal in the middle of the track, Roger Williamson had tyre failure and Tony Brise was killed in Graham Hills plane crash.

[Vitesse]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Maybe they were quick because they pushed the thing beyond the envolope and the cars physical capabilities and death or serious injury was an inevitable consequense. I have often thought this when I hear these sort of discussions unless of cause it was a complete mechanical component failure like Senna's. Canny drivers like Jackie Stewart were quick without wringing the cars neck and taking too many risks every time they raced it.

Sorry, Al, but that argument really doesn't stand up. Tom came over a blind brow to find a marshal right in front of him. Had the Zandvoort authorities paid proper attention to safety then Roger's crash would probably have been survivable. Tony died in a plane crash.

No overdriving there. Nor did any of them have that reputation.

Originally Posted by Davhut

Brise, while spectacular in smaller classes (his drive at LBGP beating Mario and Redman was something to see) would have been equally disadvantaged by his small and usually cash-strapped team.

For 1976 Graham Hill had negotiated increased funding from Embassy. He was also in negotiation with other potential major sponsors. And - crucially - they intended to run only one car, concentrating on Tony. So - more money, fewer hassles.

And, for all his loyalty to Tom Wheatcroft, I don't think Roger would have hesitated if (say) Colin Chapman had come calling. Tom wouldn't have stood in his way either.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Vitesse

Sorry, Al, but that argument really doesn't stand up. Tom came over a blind brow to find a marshal right in front of him. Had the Zandvoort authorities paid proper attention to safety then Roger's crash would probably have been survivable. Tony died in a plane crash.

No overdriving there. Nor did any of them have that reputation.

Plus Williamson had a puncture. If he was overdriving then so was Jim Clark.

[chunterer]

Fascinating to think about the decades of great British Isles & Irish talent and the lack of success British drivers ended up getting due to many unfortunate circumstances.

Starting with Stirling Moss, Jim Clark, then in the 70's the Roger, Tom and Tony, onto possibly Derek Warwick, then Johnny Herbert, Martin Donnelly and now Jenson Button. Mansell too, showed great ability early on but took a lot of pain and hardship to get his title in the end.

All of these drivers had/have showed talent equal to the best of the time (one or two were definitely the best of their time) but only a couple of them got the chance to reap the rewards their ability offered them on a regular basis, either because they were tragically killed, seriously injured or just not able to get the drive that put them on the right path.

IMO the drivers who have been successful like Hunt and Hill were perhaps not as naturally talented as the guys in the previous paragraph yet won through.

[John Turner]

You think Hunt and Hill were more successful than Moss, Clark or Mansell? Am I missing something here Chunty?

[chunterer]

Ok Clark won WDC twice and was surely destined for more.

The point I was trying to makes is that we could have had a lot more drivers winning races and titles had circumstances not prevailed against them.

On one hand Hunt, D Hill and Mansell won a title apiece, but the others I mentioned like Moss, Williamson, Pryce, Brise and then later the likes of Herbert and Donnelly arguably had more potential than those three in their own time?

We'll never know how things might have panned out say if Tony Brise' career continued into the 80's or Johnny Herbert hadn't have had his 3000 smash.

They were all great talents coming through in their respective era's.

[Marcus Mussa]

I asked Colin Vandervell about the relative merits of these three drivers – he raced competitively against all three. He rates them in the order Pryce, Brise and Williamson (a long way back). However he says he did not have very much direct contact with Brise, not enough really to make a proper judgement.

Interestingly he rates above all of them (and certainly on the same level as Pryce) a fellow that everybody seems to forget, named Tony Trimmer…who he says never made mistakes; was always unflappable under pressure, drove smoothly and just got on with the job (he compares him to Alain Prost). Colin thinks that perhaps he is the real talent who got away.

[Andrew Kitson]

All three in the book were great promising talents. Many great memories of seeing them race, Roger in his saloon Anglia, Tom in the F100 and Tony at Brands in FF. To have all three die in such freak circumstances was devastating.
The air crash was one of those 'remember what you were doing when you heard about it' moments. I can. The luckiest guy of all was surely American Ted Wentz who, as Geoff Friswell told me, turned down the offer of a flight home in Graham's plane for some reason.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

I asked Colin Vandervell about the relative merits of these three drivers – he raced competitively against all three. He rates them in the order Pryce, Brise and Williamson (a long way back). However he says he did not have very much direct contact with Brise, not enough really to make a proper judgement.

Interestingly he rates above all of them (and certainly on the same level as Pryce) a fellow that everybody seems to forget, named Tony Trimmer…who he says never made mistakes; was always unflappable under pressure, drove smoothly and just got on with the job (he compares him to Alain Prost). Colin thinks that perhaps he is the real talent who got away.

Why did Colin Vandervell stop? He was fantastic in F3, but if I remember correctly, ended up racing Saloons.

At least Tony Trimmer got to F1, if only in rubbish cars. I don't think he had a chance in the end!

Whilst on the subject on 70's drivers who could have gone on to bigger things. What about Stephen South. Turned down a McLaren F1 drive and ended up losing a leg in crappy CanAm car. Very sad.

[Marcus Mussa]

I gather he stopped because it became too demanding on his time. He had a full time job when he was racing. He wanted to be able to turn up for qualifying, do that and the race and go home and back to work. That was becoming impossible if he wanted to progress.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

Why did Colin Vandervell stop? He was fantastic in F3, but if I remember correctly, ended up racing Saloons.

At least Tony Trimmer got to F1, if only in rubbish cars. I don't think he had a chance in the end!

Whilst on the subject on 70's drivers who could have gone on to bigger things. What about Stephen South. Turned down a McLaren F1 drive and ended up losing a leg in crappy CanAm car. Very sad.

Yeah I remember Vandervell's name down on an Thruxton BTCC round entry list in a Capri one year?!!!

Glad you mentioned Stephen South Alan! His was a name I was thinking of when I started the thread but didn't think he was as highly thought of as the late great 3?

Although I was very young at the time I remember that Stephen was much touted in 1980 when he made his McLaren debut quite young having starred in F2 for Project 4 and Ron Dennis sort of promoted him to the A-Team!

But like you say if he just wanted to turn up and race, he must've been the last of the real amateurs in F1?

He did the opening 2 or 3 races in 1980 before Prost took over didn't he?

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by chunterer

He did the opening 2 or 3 races in 1980 before Prost took over didn't he?

DNQ for McLaren in US GP. Nothing else unfortunately.

I always thought he would go a lot further.

When I was a kid I was a big fan of Dave Walker who was one of the stars of F3. Brilliant at Crystal Palace and won an extrodinary slipstreamer at Silverstone. Bided his time in the pack and won it in the last second. a bit like Monza. When he got the No2 Lotus F1 drive I thought he would be great. Unfortunately the No2 Lotus drive wasn't all it could have been and he got a bit lost, although at Brands he was lapped after a pit stop and stayed behind Fittipaldi for the rest of the race. It just goes to show you can be in the right place at the wrong time, then it all goes pear shaped!

[Al Weyman]

Ok sorry, I did not realise the circumstances, I withdraw the comment.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

DNQ for McLaren in US GP. Nothing else unfortunately.

I always thought he would go a lot further.

When I was a kid I was a big fan of Dave Walker who was one of the stars of F3. Brilliant at Crystal Palace and won an extrodinary slipstreamer at Silverstone. Bided his time in the pack and won it in the last second. a bit like Monza. When he got the No2 Lotus F1 drive I thought he would be great. Unfortunately the No2 Lotus drive wasn't all it could have been and he got a bit lost, although at Brands he was lapped after a pit stop and stayed behind Fittipaldi for the rest of the race. It just goes to show you can be in the right place at the wrong time, then it all goes pear shaped!

Yes Walker and Bob Evans suffered similarly when they got their F1 chances and got passed over I suppose.

So many drivers suffer from the right place wrong time scenario don't they!

Peterson, Brundle, Lehto, Montoya (arguably?) are just a few I can think of who never really got into the right team at the right time.

[davyboy]

Ferrari chewed up quite a few as well... Alboreto, Alesi to name just two. Right place, wrong time is a good idea for a new thread too isn't it.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Ferrari chewed up quite a few as well... Alboreto, Alesi to name just two. Right place, wrong time is a good idea for a new thread too isn't it.

Yes!

Well go on then!

[Alan Cherry]

This thread has got me thinking - I've been told that Tom Pryce is buried in Otford graveyard - I pass it every day on my way to work. As he was a hero of mine I may see if I can find it and read the inscription.
Anyone know where it's located ?