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Old 16 Aug 2020, 15:33 (Ref:3995779)   #3876
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
The picture is always muddied by DRS, so we never can tell how much the changes have worked. But increasing the downforce in 2017 definitely did not help
What didn't it help?

The changes were made to make the cars faster - they are.
https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/rules-regs/2017-season-changes.html

This time bodywork and tyres are the centre of attention, with both getting wider in order to boost downforce and grip, making the cars both faster and physically harder to drive. In fact, a reduction in lap time of around 3 to 5 seconds is expected…
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Old 17 Aug 2020, 08:24 (Ref:3995901)   #3877
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I was talking about the racing. It was a short sighted move to make cars more spectacular, but everyone but the FIA it seems could see it was going to ruin the racing. Thankfully some saw sense and came up low downforce cars for 2022
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Old 17 Aug 2020, 09:11 (Ref:3995913)   #3878
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
I was talking about the racing. It was a short sighted move to make cars more spectacular, but everyone but the FIA it seems could see it was going to ruin the racing. Thankfully some saw sense and came up low downforce cars for 2022
It was never about the 'racing' though - it was about improving lap times.

The recent direction on reducing down-force is also not about the 'racing', but about improving safety in the sport.

There are many examples of Motorsport that have better 'racing', but that doesn't mean they align with the aspirations of F1 (competitors, fans, governing bodies). This is why there will always be discussions over the right route for technical regulations to take - there is no consensus on what F1 should be, so how can those writing the regulation match people's aspirations.

Safety vs spectacle?
Speed vs competition?
Simplicity vs innovation?
Elite status vs accessibility?

For every person who states that they could see higher down-force would ruin the racing, there is someone else who wants F1 cars to be as fast as possible.....
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Old 17 Aug 2020, 09:18 (Ref:3995915)   #3879
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
What didn't it help?

The changes were made to make the cars faster
[/I]
Just what F1 needs, faster cars.
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Old 17 Aug 2020, 09:45 (Ref:3995924)   #3880
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
It was never about the 'racing' though - it was about improving lap times.

The recent direction on reducing down-force is also not about the 'racing', but about improving safety in the sport.

There are many examples of Motorsport that have better 'racing', but that doesn't mean they align with the aspirations of F1 (competitors, fans, governing bodies). This is why there will always be discussions over the right route for technical regulations to take - there is no consensus on what F1 should be, so how can those writing the regulation match people's aspirations.

Safety vs spectacle?
Speed vs competition?
Simplicity vs innovation?
Elite status vs accessibility?

For every person who states that they could see higher down-force would ruin the racing, there is someone else who wants F1 cars to be as fast as possible.....
Yeah, the FIA were saying that they were trying to facilitate racing between the cars, appointed a committee to do this, apparently surveyed the fans, and then out of the blue introduces faster cars to fix a problem nobody had with F1. Genius!

So Griff's post was completely justified.


P.S. This change was not about safety, other than Pirelli were not prepared to upgrade the tyres, so the cars had to be made to generate smaller loads to compensate for the tyre's short commings.
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Old 17 Aug 2020, 09:57 (Ref:3995925)   #3881
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Yeah, the FIA were saying that they were trying to facilitate racing between the cars, appointed a committee to do this, apparently surveyed the fans, and then out of the blue introduces faster cars to fix a problem nobody had with F1. Genius!

So Griff's post was completely justified.
They were attempting to meet multiple requirements at the same time, one of them was better racing.

The aero was not about better racing though, that was part of other changes introduced at the same time.

F1's bosses at the time were trying to 'solve' all of the following requirements:
'faster cars, happier drivers, better racing and less financial strain on smaller teams'

These were addressed (not necessarily successfully) as follows:
Equalising engines
Cost - a fixed 12m euros from 2018.
Performance convergence - judged, early in the 2017 season, on a lap-time difference of 0.3secs on a reference circuit, calculated on a metric that defines power-sensitivity (the effect of power on lap times).
Noise - to increase and improve the sound.
Obligation to supply - to formally enshrine the concept that they all ensure no team can be without an engine.

More raceable tyres
Tyre degradation should be proportional to performance, so the less grippy a tyre is, the longer it will run before it starts to degrade.
When a car is closely following another, its tyres should not degrade to the extent their performance cannot be recovered.

Faster, more dramatic cars
The strategy group set engineers the target of coming up with a set of [aero] rules that made the cars five to six seconds a lap quicker, more dramatic looking and did not negatively affect overtaking. A compromise set of rules was agreed that would reduce lap times by about three to four seconds, but made no reference to affecting overtaking.

Ultimately, achieving all of these aims at the same time was going to be difficult at best. But the improved racing was not one of the targets of the aero changes, that was included in the requirements of the engine and tyre changes. The aero changes (once the compromise was made) was purely about improving lap times, which they have. That has been at the detriment of racing, but that doesn't mean the aero changes didn't meet their aim.
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Old 17 Aug 2020, 10:21 (Ref:3995927)   #3882
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
They were attempting to meet multiple requirements at the same time, one of them was better racing.

The aero was not about better racing though, that was part of other changes introduced at the same time.

F1's bosses at the time were trying to 'solve' all of the following requirements:
'faster cars, happier drivers, better racing and less financial strain on smaller teams'

These were addressed (not necessarily successfully) as follows:
Equalising engines
Cost - a fixed 12m euros from 2018.
Performance convergence - judged, early in the 2017 season, on a lap-time difference of 0.3secs on a reference circuit, calculated on a metric that defines power-sensitivity (the effect of power on lap times).
Noise - to increase and improve the sound.
Obligation to supply - to formally enshrine the concept that they all ensure no team can be without an engine.

More raceable tyres
Tyre degradation should be proportional to performance, so the less grippy a tyre is, the longer it will run before it starts to degrade.
When a car is closely following another, its tyres should not degrade to the extent their performance cannot be recovered.

Faster, more dramatic cars
The strategy group set engineers the target of coming up with a set of [aero] rules that made the cars five to six seconds a lap quicker, more dramatic looking and did not negatively affect overtaking. A compromise set of rules was agreed that would reduce lap times by about three to four seconds, but made no reference to affecting overtaking.

Ultimately, achieving all of these aims at the same time was going to be difficult at best. But the improved racing was not one of the targets of the aero changes, that was included in the requirements of the engine and tyre changes. The aero changes (once the compromise was made) was purely about improving lap times, which they have. That has been at the detriment of racing, but that doesn't mean the aero changes didn't meet their aim.
The first two I recall as part of the mix, the third, I only became aware of after the fact. I seem to recall everybody being a bit surprised by the results and the fact that they had fixed a problem nobody had complained about.

P.S. Nice pins in your avatar CR!
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Old 17 Aug 2020, 11:29 (Ref:3995941)   #3883
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
It was never about the 'racing' though - it was about improving lap times.

The recent direction on reducing down-force is also not about the 'racing', but about improving safety in the sport.

There are many examples of Motorsport that have better 'racing', but that doesn't mean they align with the aspirations of F1 (competitors, fans, governing bodies). This is why there will always be discussions over the right route for technical regulations to take - there is no consensus on what F1 should be, so how can those writing the regulation match people's aspirations.

Safety vs spectacle?
Speed vs competition?
Simplicity vs innovation?
Elite status vs accessibility?

For every person who states that they could see higher down-force would ruin the racing, there is someone else who wants F1 cars to be as fast as possible.....
F1 list a summary of the changes for the 2019 season on their website, saying they are all aimed at making F1 racing even more competitive. Under each item it says: Why has it been made and the reason they give for the change to the rear wing is: "Like the front wing, to help promote even closer racing." Similarly with the barge boards: "helps make the flow coming off the rear of the car less problematic for following drivers". Clearly these changes were made to improve the racing.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...IY6mEcwsM.html
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Old 17 Aug 2020, 12:00 (Ref:3995946)   #3884
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
They were attempting to meet multiple requirements at the same time
Agree with that entire post.

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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
The first two I recall as part of the mix, the third, I only became aware of after the fact. I seem to recall everybody being a bit surprised by the results and the fact that they had fixed a problem nobody had complained about.
My memory is that the response to the more "racy" look was very positive. It's hard to say nobody complained about these things. As all you have to do it look on this forum and you will find that just about everything has been complained about.

While committees can get inadvertently hyper-focused on minutia and/or relatively low priority items, I do think that in general they were trying to address criticism.

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Old 17 Aug 2020, 12:28 (Ref:3995957)   #3885
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To the best of my memory the idea for the faster cars came from the old FOM i.e. B.C.Ecclestone.
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Old 17 Aug 2020, 12:37 (Ref:3995962)   #3886
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
F1 list a summary of the changes for the 2019 season on their website, saying they are all aimed at making F1 racing even more competitive. Under each item it says: Why has it been made and the reason they give for the change to the rear wing is: "Like the front wing, to help promote even closer racing." Similarly with the barge boards: "helps make the flow coming off the rear of the car less problematic for following drivers". Clearly these changes were made to improve the racing.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...IY6mEcwsM.html
For the 2019 changes, yes. But the 2017 changes where a mixture of reasons.

https://www.formula1.com/en/champion...n-changes.html

There is no mention of better racing associated with the aero changes.
'This time bodywork and tyres are the centre of attention, with both getting wider in order to boost downforce and grip, making the cars both faster and physically harder to drive. In fact, a reduction in lap time of around 3 to 5 seconds is expected…'

Power units were supposed to improve racing though:
'A number of changes have also been introduced aimed at reducing power unit costs, guaranteeing supply for customer teams, and closing the performance gap between engines:'

I think it was the reaction to the 2017 changes that contributed to 2019's changes concentrating on better racing.

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To the best of my memory the idea for the faster cars came from the old FOM i.e. B.C.Ecclestone.
This is almost certainly the case. Liberty Media's purchase of a minority stake was completed in September 2016, but the rule changes had been agreed in April 2016.
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Old 17 Aug 2020, 12:49 (Ref:3995967)   #3887
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To the best of my memory the idea for the faster cars came from the old FOM i.e. B.C.Ecclestone.
What jumps to mind for me was all of the comments about lack of differentiation between F1 and GP2 lap times. I can't remember if that was pre or post sale to Liberty.

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Old 17 Aug 2020, 13:55 (Ref:3995985)   #3888
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I seem to remember Bernie saying he wanted faster cars. For me though they should have been more powerful, putting in more aero was always going to kill the spectacle and we ended up with those ugly looking winglets, that ruined the cars looked. It was a very short sighted move. I look forward to those low downforce cars in 2022, hopefully without DRS too
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Old 10 Feb 2022, 07:01 (Ref:4098031)   #3889
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Bring back side skirts and full ground effects ala late 1970s
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Old 10 Feb 2022, 08:54 (Ref:4098042)   #3890
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I look forward to those low downforce cars in 2022, hopefully without DRS too
Dont hold your breath.... With the track revisions Albert Park has had its DRS zones upped to 4 now for this year!
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Old 10 Feb 2022, 09:07 (Ref:4098044)   #3891
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Dont hold your breath.... With the track revisions Albert Park has had its DRS zones upped to 4 now for this year!
Well that will probably lead to overkill and make them get rid of DRS sooner
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Old 10 Feb 2022, 18:54 (Ref:4098125)   #3892
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What jumps to mind for me was all of the comments about lack of differentiation between F1 and GP2 lap times. I can't remember if that was pre or post sale to Liberty.

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“When I quit F1 I said to someone about the current cars, ‘we’re qualified, we’ve come through the ranks, so that effectively we’re qualified to fly F18s, but now we’re flying passenger jets’,” Mark Webber said.

“There’s no doubt that (Max) Verstappen is a talent but after just a handful of races, he’s already ahead of the car. F1 shouldn’t be like that.

“F1 cars should command more respect. When you warm one of them up in the garage for the first time it should be a case of ‘f***ing hell! I’ve made it to here and now I have to crack this final mission’.

“Talk to drivers who started in Formula 1 around the same time I did: we all came away from the first F1 test thinking ‘I’m not too sure about this,’ which is completely how it should be and that resonates with the fans.”
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https://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/...21/story.shtml

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The current cars are physically easier to drive [than those from previous eras] ... I did 100km in the Force India, as fast as I could go, on slicks in the dry .. but my neck didn’t hurt. I’m 56 years old – I shouldn’t be able to do that!
- Martin Brundle, 2016
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/f...vious-era.html

I recall a quote from a GP2 driver who found the power-steering assisted 2016 F1 car to less taxing to drive than his GP2 car during their F1 testing, but I can't quite find it.

Those 2014-2016 F1 cars were so darn slow, they were at times 10-15 seconds per lap slower than 2004 F1 cars at the start of a race with full fuel, making them much faster in 2017 was absolutely the right decision.

Going 2-3 seconds per lap slower from where they were in 2020 is fine (I think they were 0.5-1.5s per slower in 2021 which made little difference), but to go 10 seconds a lap slower again would be the wrong move IMO.

In 2016, Super Formula cars from Japan were much faster than F1 cars in corners (F1 much faster on the straight due to much more power of course). It was ridiculous. The F1 driver could do little more than wait, wait some more and then finally pick up the throttle due to lack of grip -- they couldn't attack the course in the aggressive manner which the Super Formula drivers could.

While they are occasionally ponderous due to the weight (due to extra safety measures since 2016), have we not been thrilled by how attacking, exciting and edgy the 2017-2021 cars with their big wings and big tyres were/are, especially in qualifying? When they are on the limit, they are really on the limit, and they can unload and spit the overambitious driver off at any moment which is rather exciting!

Qualifying Highlights | 2021 Dutch Grand Prix

Of course F1 adding better tracks like Zandvoort, Mugello etc has helped a lot too.

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Old 11 Feb 2022, 04:44 (Ref:4098190)   #3893
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The weight is the most important factor for me, this is where the cars can look slow and lumbering is in the slower corners and on direction change. I know for a long time the cars weighed about 500kg, then in the 90s went to 600kg. Not sure what they weigh now but I believe it’s knocking on for 800kg.

What really stands out for me of the cars from the early 90s is their speed around hairpins and slower corners, corners where spectators can actually view the cars is that they look so much faster. It’s easy to make a fast corner look fast, because 180mph looks similar to 160mph, but it’s the slower corners where the difference is more pronounced.
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Old 11 Feb 2022, 09:25 (Ref:4098205)   #3894
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Cars don't need to be mega fast, they just need to look it. They need to look on the edge. MotoGP lap times are a lot slower than F1, but the bikes never look slow, because they are closer to the edge of performance.

Hopefully the new car regs can make that happen, as well as making the racing better
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Old 11 Feb 2022, 12:43 (Ref:4098241)   #3895
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The weight is the most important factor for me, this is where the cars can look slow and lumbering is in the slower corners and on direction change. I know for a long time the cars weighed about 500kg, then in the 90s went to 600kg. Not sure what they weigh now but I believe it’s knocking on for 800kg.

What really stands out for me of the cars from the early 90s is their speed around hairpins and slower corners, corners where spectators can actually view the cars is that they look so much faster. It’s easy to make a fast corner look fast, because 180mph looks similar to 160mph, but it’s the slower corners where the difference is more pronounced.
Plus One here!

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Old 11 Feb 2022, 12:53 (Ref:4098245)   #3896
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The weight is the most important factor for me, this is where the cars can look slow and lumbering is in the slower corners and on direction change. I know for a long time the cars weighed about 500kg, then in the 90s went to 600kg. Not sure what they weigh now but I believe it’s knocking on for 800kg.

Yes, 795kg sadly.

685kg with all the current safety features and a 3L V10 with KERS with a smaller cars and smaller/lighter wheels and tires would be perfectly possible.

With a wider car a few kilo's more. Unfortunately we will never going to see those weights no more because of the choices made on drivetrain, car and wheel/tire size.

Imagine that, the new generation ultra fast cars that are able to follow one another like we haven't seen in more than two decades. Ultra fast in the fast corners due to ground effects and much more nimble in the slow ones because 110kg lighter weight. Add to that a nice sounding V10 that all teams can afford and that runs on 100% sustainable fuel. You'd have the perfect F1 car. Oh well....

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Old 11 Feb 2022, 13:10 (Ref:4098251)   #3897
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One thing that struck me yesterday when I was looking at the pictures of the new Aston Martin. It looks so flippin' long! Will they be able to get around Monaco?
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Old 11 Feb 2022, 15:33 (Ref:4098274)   #3898
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One thing that struck me yesterday when I was looking at the pictures of the new Aston Martin. It looks so flippin' long! Will they be able to get around Monaco?
They are a little bit shorter than last year, around 100-150mm shorter.

The 2021 cars are about the same length as a Range Rover or long wheelbase S Class (5.3-5.5m), but there is a new maximum wheelbase rule (previously unregulated, now about 100mm less than the old average wheelbase) as well as shorter overhangs for 2022 which makes the cars a little bit shorter.

FIA originally proposed 3400mm maximum wheelbase, however teams rejected this due to excessive redesign work.
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Old 11 Feb 2022, 15:37 (Ref:4098276)   #3899
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One thing that struck me yesterday when I was looking at the pictures of the new Aston Martin. It looks so flippin' long! Will they be able to get around Monaco?
stripes (gills) tend to help with the hiding of weight and make you look taller or in this case longer.

just one of the many things i have learned about tshirts over the years!
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Old 20 Feb 2022, 02:28 (Ref:4099469)   #3900
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Q2 Tyre Start Rule removed from sporting regs

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other...?ocid=msedgntp
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