[Official] Looking ahead thread into '16

[ScotsBrutesFan]

OK folks we have 2 more races left this year, and it's still up for grabs. but it's that time of the year that I review the season from a fantasy competition point of view.

2015 saw some significant changes in the fantasy this year, with separation of drivers and teams as well as teams and engines, new constructors points, penalties for finishing laps down.

The engine penalties have become a farce with -70 points against a supplier from just one car at one event.

SO I'm looking for constructive input regarding what changes to make if any for next year.

You can either post then here for all to see, or PM me privately and I'll post them anonymously here for debate.

I'm looking forward to any suggestions ... any that are taken forward will be credited in the new rules list next February.

[chillibowl]

yeah totally something to do with having some fun with the engine place penalties.

no idea how the numbers/penalties should work but a system which makes picking Button or Alonso less of a liability relative to the hefty price tag associated with picking them in the first place.

for example Button (and/or Mclaren) would get a penalty for having an engine change but then have a chance to make up points/half points by going from 70th on the grid to finishing 14th...if that makes sense.

could potentially open up some more viable team combinations.

[steve_r]

I really don't like to see massive negative points penalties. I would prefer to see the amount of points you can earn reduced if a car has an engine change etc.

For example: take Button at the last race. He did not qualify for technical reasons. He had all sorts of grid penalties as well. He could have driven the race of his life and still been on negative points.

Instead, in this case why not reduce the amount of points he can gain by position changes. So instead of +1 point per position gained, why not reduce this to half a point per position - or something similar in way of reduced rewards.

That way, he has already missed out on any qualifying bonuses for getting into Q2 or Q3, but at least a clean quick race will result in some kind of points reward.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

The problem has been the stacking up of engine parts, not just whole engine changes, and then 2 whole engine changes at one race event.

Where would you stop with the partial points ?
3/4 points if an engine part or gearbox changed, half points if full engine changed,
1/4 points if engine and gearbox changed, 2 new engines in a weekend....erm?

I've had a thought about grouping the number of grid drop places regardless of reason so that there is a max penalty, but I need to See how that would work out.

Thanks for the input, keep the suggestions coming.

[steve_r]

Why is there a need for engine change penalties at all in this comp'?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Any penalty that effects the outcome of the race has to be a factor in the overall scoring.

If Vettel loses out to Rosberg for second place in the drivers championship, it will rightly be because of Engine penalties, being made to start further back etc.
If Vettel wasn't being penalised for the additional parts then he may very well have secured the second place by now.

Likewise one of the fantasy components is to pick a power unit, for some it may be a strong driver and a good engine but a weaker second driver and a middle of the road chassis.
For others it might be 2 strong drivers and make do with the Weaker Engine, hoping that it comes good over the year.

[chillibowl]

fair point, and im saying this in hindsight obviously, but there is too much advantage in picking the dominant driver of one team and then being able to afford to double down and buy an engine from that same manu. quickly looking at the results the top is dominated by those who have either LH/Merc PU or NR/Merc PU combination.

short of changing rules though, perhaps just a rethink in how the initial prices are determined should be looked at. given the rule stability perhaps Alonso and Button shouldnt be priced as high or perhaps a price structure that means picking either LH or NR for your teams you will only be able to afford the Manor chassis.

i think that might encourage a bit more variety to the types of teams people pick.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

In many ways the driver, constructor and Engine valuations are the hardest thig to do each pre season. THere is no real data to work with. I had hoped Ferarri would pick up without the need for so many extra bits, and Renault going backwards couldn't have been predicted. Honda most disappointingly not appearing to make much movement at all, has made the valuations look rather silly, but then hindsight tends to do that.

Here is what I'm thinking at this early stage regarding penalties

Grouping of total grid penalties for drivers, that's anything confirmed by the Stewards ahead of the race. Regardless of how many actual positions are dropped.
1-3 places = -3 points (blocking in Qually etc)
4-5 places = -5 (gear Box)
6-10 places = -10
11-20 places = -15
21 + places = -20
DNQ and allowed to race with current rules would go up from -22 to -24 assuming everyone turns up. That would be the maximum penalty.

[MikeManNZ]

Why not treat the penalties as a percentage.

So the equation would be Total Points = Base Points * (100-Penalty Points)

So lets car a car scored 60 normal points.

No penalty = 60 Points

20Pt penalty = 48 Points (60 * .80)

70pt penalty = 18 points (60 * .30)

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Whilst I have no problems working in percentages, I'd rather avoid decimal scores.

Also the penalty has to be applied to individual cars of the constructors and engine manufacturers where the maximum points haul is 21 points. So 3 or 5 grid drop would have a minimal effect. It's only when you get to 20 places that sees a drop in 4 points.

[MikeManNZ]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

Whilst I have no problems working in percentages, I'd rather avoid decimal scores.

Also the penalty has to be applied to individual cars of the constructors and engine manufacturers where the maximum points haul is 21 points. So 3 or 5 grid drop would have a minimal effect. It's only when you get to 20 places that sees a drop in 4 points.

I would just apply the standard rounding or round down (just pick one and stick with it). If the effect is not high enough then increase to Total Points = Base Points * (100-(Penalty Points*2)) (or 1.5, 1.75, 2.25 whatever works)

[Greem]

Why not just normalise all negative scores to zero at the end of a weekend?

It still hurts, but it's a lot simpler - if the accrued penalties exceed the points scored, make the weekend's score a big round nothing.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Thanks for your comments so far.

I've been thinking of how to make more variations in the team selections,

Last year I allowed a Driver and power Unit from the same team, but not a Driver and constructor or Constructor and Power Unit.

This year I'm thinking that as there will be 22 drivers, 11 chassis and effectively 6 power Units (Counting the TAG Heuer and the Ferrari 2015) on the grid that No elements of your chosen team will be allowed to match the real world.

However I'm also thinking of allowing Packages at an additional fee.

If you want A driver and his own Power Unit, you can have them but at an addition package fee of say 5k, this would force a cheaper chassis and 2nd driver.

Or if you wanted the chassis and matched Power Unit you can but at an additional 10K, this would force you to choose 2 lesser drivers.

What are your thoughts on something like that ? Oh the pricing will be more reflective this year...I hope/

[steve_r]

Sounds complicated.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

It is still just a random thought that might not make it. The trick would be in the pricing, and also the hope that teams and Power units progressed in ways they didn't last year.

[wolfhound]

Last year there was only Sainz at the lowest driver pricing that left a limited choice for those needing a low budget driver to fit with the rest of their team.

I think that the cost of individual parts of a team are more important than the overall rules and I don't think there are massive changes needed.

The other factor with power units if a mercedes unit is chosen it effectively eliminates 4 teams and 8 possible drivers in the 2016 proposals, where as there are more possible combinations with Ferrari power units due to 'different spec motors'

[Greem]

Hmm... Idle thought ahoy!

Instead of "money", how about ranking everything in terms of "points"?

Example:

Merc PU 10 points
Merc Chassis 10 points
Hamilton 10 points
...
Sauber Chassis 2 points
2015 Ferrari PU 1 point
Sainz 2 points
Palmer 1 point

(that just an example)

Then with whichever points-for-positions scheme you go for, the accrued points of your team are deducted from the total for each round. As an example, if you pick Hamilton//Rosberg/Merc/Merc PU and they come 1/2 in a race then you gain maximum points but you also get the biggest deduction - not necessarily enough to render your score negative, but perhaps slightly less than if the bottom two drivers in the worst chassis with a bad engine get onto the podium.

I might not be articulating it that well but it seems to be a 'bonus points for being rubbish and finishing well' sort of idea.

[vodka]

how about 2016 fantasy? Am I blind?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Not blind, just early.

The 2016 competition will go live over the weekend - possibly even tonight UK time

[chillibowl]

excellent!