WEC Porsche Prototype Discussion - Page 339

GT6 · 5 Jun 2018, 14:18 (Ref:3826955)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasperG

I bet current gen F1 car is quicker when not run without rules restrictions, maybe even with the current rules, we will see at SPA.

i think that is unlikely as the porsche engine plus aero plus hybrid system charged up to max plus no regs to adhere to is just about the high point of current racing tech where as f1 restrictions just strangle the f1 cars.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 5 Jun 2018, 14:23 (Ref:3826957)

Quote:

Originally Posted by valedave

Do you mean try and "break the record"? You may be right, although I wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion that a current-gen F1 car is quicker around the Nordschleife than this EVO thing.

Would a current F1 car even be allowed to go round Nordschleife?

valedave · 5 Jun 2018, 14:38 (Ref:3826960)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Would a current F1 car even be allowed to go round Nordschleife?

As long as you book the circuit I think you can pretty much do what you want, can't you?

**BertMk2** · 5 Jun 2018, 15:00 (Ref:3826962)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Would a current F1 car even be allowed to go round Nordschleife?

Didn't BMW run one around there a few years ago? (when they owned Sauber)

DistortedSmile · 5 Jun 2018, 15:12 (Ref:3826964)

Quote:

Originally Posted by valedave

This makes me unreasonably angry and I'm not really sure why...

Bellof's time was set in qualifying for a sanctioned, official event run to a certain set of regulations. It's part of Porsche's history, and a fantastic part of it to boot. It should be celebrated (as it has been), especially given what happened to that great talent two years later.

It just doesn't sit right with me if they go and smash that record using a car that isn't homologated or running to any set of rules, isn't competing in a race event and has unrestricted access to the circuit with no other cars to act as a distraction. The Spa time was a bit of fun, I guess, and good PR ("Quicker than F1!") – whatever. But I really really hope they don't go big on this one.

It's a very impressive laptime for sure, none of the modern supercars and track day hypercars get anywhere near close to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Didn't BMW run one around there a few years ago? (when they owned Sauber)

They did, though the car wasn't run in anger IIRC.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 5 Jun 2018, 15:17 (Ref:3826966)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Didn't BMW run one around there a few years ago? (when they owned Sauber)

Nick Heidfeld did in 2007, so fair enough then.

deggis · 5 Jun 2018, 15:35 (Ref:3826968)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkwZbu-aaX4

Title is clickbaity, as the car did two full laps and the best time was 6:30. Rest of the fast laps were not full as the car went to pits.

In the video he predicts under 5 min lap based on marshall posts, time advantage vs. GT3 RS and other not so scientific points...

Quote:

The 919 passes Breidscheid which is roughly 9.5 km down the track) at 2:12. GT2 RS does that at 2:42 sec which is a 30 sec difference. or 132 vs 162 sec = 0.81 difference

The next section that we can hear is Bergwerk, Marshall post 125A. 2:23 sec for the 919 vs 3:01 for the GT2 RS or 143 and 181 sec and 0.79 difference.

The last section we hear about on the radio is almost at the end of the track, Pflanzgarten, marshall post 170 where the car does 4:00 opposed to 5:13 for the GT2 RS. 313 sec vs 240 sec = 0.76 times slower

With current time difference this would mean that the final lap time of the 919 would already be below 5:30. But the gap will increase because the car is constantly traveling faster and it has another 4 km to go.

If we apply the factor 0.76 to the final lap time of the GT2 RS which was 6:47 or 407 sec, we will get 309 sec for the 919, or 5:09. This is already DAMN IMPRESSIVE, however the actual theoretical lap time should be EVEN LOWER because the difference will only grow as long as the distance increases because the car is constantly faster.

deggis · 5 Jun 2018, 15:54 (Ref:3826972)

Quote:

Originally Posted by valedave

As long as you book the circuit I think you can pretty much do what you want, can't you?

Testing restrictions might stop that with a current car (current as in 2017-18 car). If I remember correctly older than 2 year old cars are free to be used. FIA rules and circuit grades have nothing to do with this as a private test is obviously not a sanctioned event.

The BMW-Sauber years ago was just a demo run and it didn't try a fast lap. They did put out a claim of "5:15" lap based on simulations. Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA2yYohW1Vs

**bjohnsonsmith** · 5 Jun 2018, 16:26 (Ref:3826975)

Quote:

Originally Posted by deggis

Testing restrictions might stop that with a current car (current as in 2017-18 car). If I remember correctly older than 2 year old cars are free to be used. FIA rules and circuit grades have nothing to do with this as a private test is obviously not a sanctioned event.

The BMW-Sauber years ago was just a demo run and it didn't try a fast lap. They did put out a claim of "5:15" lap based on simulations. Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA2yYohW1Vs

That puts a different complexion on it and is what I was trying to get at.

Akrapovic · 5 Jun 2018, 17:09 (Ref:3826984)

Car built with no rules is faster than car built with rules.

Yeah fine it's a new record, but not really. Bellofs record is still the fastest in a race built car in a real sessions.

919 Evo is an interesting experiment but not much more than that.

**Aysedasi** · 5 Jun 2018, 17:13 (Ref:3826985)

Yep. Agreed. Sometimes, I struggle to contain my excitement. Reminds me of a certain 'comedy play' by Shakespeare........

GT6 · 5 Jun 2018, 17:39 (Ref:3826989)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Yep. Agreed. Sometimes, I struggle to contain my excitement. Reminds me of a certain 'comedy play' by Shakespeare........

Well in 11 days we will all be living " a midsummer nights dream"

**Aysedasi** · 5 Jun 2018, 17:41 (Ref:3826990)

Nice one......

**bjohnsonsmith** · 5 Jun 2018, 17:53 (Ref:3826994)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT6

Well in 11 days we will all be living " a midsummer nights dream"

The summer solstice isn't until the 21st of June.

**joeb** · 5 Jun 2018, 18:14 (Ref:3826997)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The summer solstice isn't until the 21st of June.

**Aysedasi** · 5 Jun 2018, 18:17 (Ref:3826999)

Ah, but who's going to argue over a few day's worth of 'artistic licence'......?

GT6 · 5 Jun 2018, 18:30 (Ref:3827008)

if you are splitting hairs try a new conditioner

TF110 · 5 Jun 2018, 18:47 (Ref:3827010)

I don't think this car is one "without rules" as much as a slightly modified and deregulated existing Le Mans prototype. Back in the group c days, they had the same type of aero features the 919 evo has, except drs's. Their engines were more powerful but didn't have hybrid power. What has changed is tire technology, efficiency, and modern technology like the hybrid.

Imo, this 919 evo is like a modern day group c car with the tech of the lmp1's. It's not some unknown super tech others can't achieve. The speeds just show the progress of these modern cars. They are so heavily restricted that Porsche can modify their lmp1 with things ran on prototypes during the 80's and 90's, drop the goofy fuel limits and go as fast as f1. That is interesting to me just from a technical point.

Akrapovic · 5 Jun 2018, 19:10 (Ref:3827017)

Maybe "without rules" is a stretch, but it's not wrong. Group C was a regulation set. This car is using tech others can't achieve because it's not legal.

The beauty of the Bellof lap was it was run to a regulation set in a real session. Not a custom built one-off that doesn't conform to a ruleset.

Don't get me wrong, the 919 Evo is a pretty awesome car. Looks great, fast, and ideally what we'd all like LMP1 to be. But...it isn't a race legal car. So comparing it to an actual lap record is a bit silly.

Richard C · 5 Jun 2018, 20:28 (Ref:3827027)

I was as upset as anyone about Porsche leaving prototype racing, but I see no problem with them taking the car elsewhere and doing other things with it. I also feel records are meant to be broken. I see nothing sacrosanct with Bellof's lap record. It was set during a different era, on a track that (I believe) has been tweaked over the years to probably be a bit easier to drive, etc. If Porsche doesn't do it, someone else will at some point.

Regardless of what happens in the future, nobody can take that lap away or diminish Bellof's accomplishment. I hope Porsche give it a good go and set a new record that will stand for awhile. And I see something appropriate with it being Porsche who may overtake Bellof's record.

Richard

Spyderman · 6 Jun 2018, 05:43 (Ref:3827073)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I was as upset as anyone about Porsche leaving prototype racing, but I see no problem with them taking the car elsewhere and doing other things with it. I also feel records are meant to be broken. I see nothing sacrosanct with Bellof's lap record. It was set during a different era, on a track that (I believe) has been tweaked over the years to probably be a bit easier to drive, etc. If Porsche doesn't do it, someone else will at some point.

Regardless of what happens in the future, nobody can take that lap away or diminish Bellof's accomplishment. I hope Porsche give it a good go and set a new record that will stand for awhile. And I see something appropriate with it being Porsche who may overtake Bellof's record.

Richard

+1

Spyderman · 6 Jun 2018, 05:49 (Ref:3827074)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't think this car is one "without rules" as much as a slightly modified and deregulated existing Le Mans prototype. Back in the group c days, they had the same type of aero features the 919 evo has, except drs's. Their engines were more powerful but didn't have hybrid power. What has changed is tire technology, efficiency, and modern technology like the hybrid.

Imo, this 919 evo is like a modern day group c car with the tech of the lmp1's. It's not some unknown super tech others can't achieve. The speeds just show the progress of these modern cars. They are so heavily restricted that Porsche can modify their lmp1 with things ran on prototypes during the 80's and 90's, drop the goofy fuel limits and go as fast as f1. That is interesting to me just from a technical point.

In full agreement.
Also - Without taking anything away from Bellof's incredible feat, It somehow seems to escape the discussion here that the 956 was the first "ground-effect" car that Porsche built, so it did have some powerful aero...especially for the day.

S griffin · 6 Jun 2018, 07:12 (Ref:3827081)

Good luck to Porsche with this, all I can say is that it is not a proper LMP car if it has no restrictions. It's a car built for ultimate performance

Spyderman · 6 Jun 2018, 07:17 (Ref:3827083)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

Good luck to Porsche with this, all I can say is that it is not a proper LMP car if it has no restrictions. It's a car built for ultimate performance

The car was not purposely built. It already existed. The design did not start from a blank sheet. It is a deregulated and modified existing car that complies with many parameters set for the LMP1 class.

Akrapovic · 6 Jun 2018, 13:14 (Ref:3827147)

"It did have regulations"

"It is deregulated"

Amusing

Cars awesome. But it isn't a Le Mans Prototype or a race car any more. It is most certainly a purpose built time attack car.

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