Is Sebastien Loeb really that great?

[silver bullet]

Now that Sebastien Loeb has hit 50 WRC wins, and the press is calling him one of the all time greats, I just wonder is he really that good?
Most of Loeb's wins have come in a car, and with a team, that is built around him, and in an era when he has no meaningful opposition.

Had Loeb been rallying 10-15 years ago with the likes of McRae, Sainz, Kankkunen, & Makinen, how many rallys would he have won then?
Going back even further when the WRC was perhaps at it's strongest, would Loeb have been able to compete with drivers like Blomqvist, Mikkola, Waldegard, Alen, Rohrl, & Vatanen?


I don't deny that Sebastien Loeb is an excellent driver, and head & shoulders above anyone else around at the moment, but IMHO the statistics are making him out to be better than he is in the all time rankings.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

I think Loeb is as good as the old guys, but better? Greatest of all? Nah, I'm not sold on it.

[irxcrossi]

Yes i think he is but didnt we have a thread on this less than a month ago?

[rallyxdamo]

Why is the ability of those who race at breakneck speeds to entertain us, the fans, questioned once again?

[gomick]

The same thing was said of Michael Schumacher - 5 seconds a lap quicker than a Minardi
We can only speak of there records because in years to come the 4th place driver will be forgotten...

[silver bullet]

Originally Posted by irxcrossi

Yes i think he is but didnt we have a thread on this less than a month ago?

it seems we did, here http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113135oops, erm... I must have missed that one (a merge may be in order perhaps )

Originally Posted by rallyxdamo

Why is the ability of those who race at breakneck speeds to entertain us, the fans, questioned once again?

I am not questioning his ability. It's just now he has had 50 WRC wins some people are hailing him as the best ever, and the statistics show him way above the likes of Sainz, McRae etc, etc. When the others were competing there were several full works teams, and each rally had at least half a dozen potential winners. Nowadays I don't think anybody really expects anyone other than Loeb to win an event. In fact his opposition is so poor that the only way anyone else can win at the moment is if Loeb makes a mistake.

What will be the most surprising headline this season? Hirvonen wins or Loeb Makes it 60

[Graz]

Loeb is one of the all time greats. This should not be in doubt.

[Norwegian Rallycross]

Loeb is probably the greatest, even though it is very diffucult to meassure! The greatest car the last few years and team are french, the nr1. driver is french. I think its very diffucult, even for a finn, swede, norwegian, scotsman or spaniard to come into that team and beat him.. That will never happen.... After all his wins, he just get more and more confident, while the opponents just get more and more frustratred.. It could'nt be much fun to drive a spot on perfect rally, and see that you are that far behind him....

[Jimmy Magnusson]

I really want to see Loeb out of Citroën and in some other car, but that won't ever happen. And if you only look at the statistics Michael Schumacher is the greatest F1 driver, but I'm not sold on that either.

[MarkkuAlen86]

I think he's very much up there. From being a tarmac specialist to dominating on snow and gravel too is very impressive. He reminds me alot of Walter Rohrl.

I think he'd have found it alot tougher though when WRC was at it's peak ( Sainz, McRae, Kankkunen etc. ), but I think he'd have still become a multiple world champion.

It's hard to judge with the WRC being such a weak championship at the moment, with so little manufacturers and championship worthy drivers ( Gronholm was the last in my opinion, I think Latvala maybe the next when he gains more experience ) contending. I think a huge part of Loeb's domination though is how well Citroen run their team and cars, seems to me like they are head and shoulders over the rest as a team goes. I think they are alot better than M-Sport even.

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by ITCCTouringCars

From being a tarmac specialist to dominating on snow and gravel too is very impressive.

He's not too shabby in a single-seater racing car either, as he proved in the Red Bull F1 car. A hugely talented driver, with little or no weaknesses in his driving ability.

Originally Posted by silver bullet

...would Loeb have been able to compete with drivers like Blomqvist, Mikkola, Waldegard, Alen, Rohrl, & Vatanen?

Was Michael Schumacher as good as Ayrton Senna? Was Ayrton Senna as good as Juan-Manuel Fangio? These are questions that can't be answered, but one thing is certain - they were all magnificently talented drivers who call all be described as bring "all time greats". The same applies to Sebastien Loeb in the rallying world.

[chunder]

Someone mentioned Rohrl earlier and yes he was great but peopel also forget that he was awful on hidden rallies

He hated the RAC and any rally where he couldnt use pace notes

Loeb, well he hasnt really any competition. The Focus cant compete on asphalt so his only rival there is Sordo and in reality only Mikko can get anywhere near him on gravel which says a lot for Mikko who was a mile away a few years ago and has really dug in and upped his pace.

It is tough on Seb, much liek Schuey, he had a rival early on in Marcus, as Schuey did with Hakkinen, but since Marcus is gone Seb really has it too easy as Michael did in the later years before Alonso came along.

I rate Seb, but sadly he will always be the champ that won when noone really was watching!

[MarkkuAlen86]

Originally Posted by chunder

Someone mentioned Rohrl earlier and yes he was great but peopel also forget that he was awful on hidden rallies

He hated the RAC and any rally where he couldnt use pace notes

Loeb, well he hasnt really any competition. The Focus cant compete on asphalt so his only rival there is Sordo and in reality only Mikko can get anywhere near him on gravel which says a lot for Mikko who was a mile away a few years ago and has really dug in and upped his pace.

It is tough on Seb, much liek Schuey, he had a rival early on in Marcus, as Schuey did with Hakkinen, but since Marcus is gone Seb really has it too easy as Michael did in the later years before Alonso came along.

I rate Seb, but sadly he will always be the champ that won when noone really was watching!

That's true.

Seb reminds of Rohrl in the way he takes corners. Both of them drive stages like race circuits, but obviously both have completely different driving styles. I doubt Walters way of driving would be much good in a light modern WRC car.

[M.Lowe]

Originally Posted by silver bullet

Now that Sebastien Loeb has hit 50 WRC wins, and the press is calling him one of the all time greats, I just wonder is he really that good?
Most of Loeb's wins have come in a car, and with a team, that is built around him, and in an era when he has no meaningful opposition.

Had Loeb been rallying 10-15 years ago with the likes of McRae, Sainz, Kankkunen, & Makinen, how many rallys would he have won then?
Going back even further when the WRC was perhaps at it's strongest, would Loeb have been able to compete with drivers like Blomqvist, Mikkola, Waldegard, Alen, Rohrl, & Vatanen?


I don't deny that Sebastien Loeb is an excellent driver, and head & shoulders above anyone else around at the moment, but IMHO the statistics are making him out to be better than he is in the all time rankings.

If you look at the drivers above they made their names in one if not two cars in the WRC

McRae Subaru
Sainz Toyota
Kankkunen Toyota, Lancia
Blomqvist and Mikkola , Audi
Waldegaard ok he won the first world championship in 79, but made in the "WRC" with the Supra and Celica"
Rohrl Audi
Alen Lancia, the man that never won the WRC.
Vatanen in the Escort in 81 but mainly known in the WRC for Peugeot
Makkinen with Subaru and Mitsubishi

Loeb Xsara and C4
But all the manufacturers built their cars around the drivers, so its unfair to say would he of won then as nobody knows as it was a different type of car that was about then.
Look at Colin McRae he couldn't get to grips with the Xsara as it wasn't a car that could be chucked at the stage / trees in proper colin stylee

About opposition Sainz and McRae where in Xsaras and didn't Loeb compete with them? he didnt beat them when he started so in effect he did have opposition.

In my mind hes the best of his time in from when he started winning and yes he has the fifty wins and he has done it in a time quicker than what the other drivers did when they where with their respective teams when their cars like I said where built around them.

Even with no opposition he still has to drive the car and finish events like the others. Its just that in todays WRC the Citroen C4 is a far better car than the new Focus.
The Xsara is a far better car than the 206 which Richard burns couldn't get to grips with which is why IMHO PSA pulled the 206 and brought out the Whale then realised the Citroen was better so they marketed that in the PSA group while they decided what to do with the Peugeot name which now the 207 S2000 has become a excellent car

[chunder]

I agree in some points but to say some of those guys made their name in those cars is a trifle unfair

Rohrl was arguable more succesful in Opels and Fiats than with Audi

And Carlos was pretty good in a Subaru aswell as Toyota

Stog and Mikkola were far better in Saab and Escort respectively

And to say Vatanen is better known in Peugeot!! Not in the UK mate, all we remember is Escorts!!

Alen, Lancia yes, but most success in Fiat and Stratos his favourite car!

I guess if you are looking only at WRC your points are true

But the main thing there is that the vast majority of those names were good in two types of car if more succesful in one or another.

Loeb arguable has no real choices, he could have gone elsewhere when Citroen pulled out in 04, but Citroen didnt wanna lose him so he drive the blue car.

If he had gone Ford or Subaru then, who knows

[tbtstt]

I think that Loeb is a truly great driver but, as has already been said, because the WRC is presently lacking the level of competition its had in the past, people are (logically) questioning his talent.

I know its a very poor example, but having closely observed his driving at the Race Of Champions, I am in no doubt he is a highly talented driver.

As M.Lowe rightly pointed out, many of the most successful WRC drivers have succeeded becuase of not only thier talent, but because of the way their team have built the car around them; think McRae with Subaru/Prodrive, Makkinen with Mitsubishi, Sainz with Toyota... Loeb with Citroen is another example of this pattern.

Everyone knows that the Xsara was a winning car, but because that connection wasn't there, another driver (specifically McRae) wasn't able to tap its potential.

Hypothetically, I guess the only way you could truly measure driver talent would be to stick all drivers in identical cars with identical support facilities; then you'd be witnessing the driver without any external influences.

[chunder]

I think that is a fair point

But also McRae won a fair few rallies with Ford

Sainz won some with Ford and Subaru

The Peogeot while Marcus who was tall and gangly was fine, Richard really didnt gel with the car, yet most otehr 206 drivers won with it names Harri, Didier. Francios and Gilles.

I think finally that car development and tyre tech has changed the way the cars are driven.

Colin, Carlos, Tommi and to some extent Marcis drove it a certain way, tht eold fashioned way if you like.

Seb was the leader with Petter, MArkko and otehrs of teh new guard, tody, neat, very clever diff tech.

I dont think the older guys could adjust as well to this style.

Carlos still managed a win which for makes him the greatest ever.

Not on pure speed, though in early nineties he was frightening! But his adaptability and dedication to improving the car.

[DavidStHubbins]

Loeb great? Yes.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by chunder

I think that is a fair point

But also McRae won a fair few rallies with Ford

Thats true; I guess the circumstances were similar in that Ford were developing the Focus from scratch, using McRae's feedback for development, but (at least in my opinion) I never thought the whole "package" came together as well as it did with McRae and Subaru.

Having said that Colin came within a whisker of taking the World title in the Focus, so the car clearly wasn't that lacking.

Originally Posted by chunder

Colin, Carlos, Tommi and to some extent Marcis drove it a certain way, tht eold fashioned way if you like.Colin, Carlos, Tommi and to some extent Marcis drove it a certain way, tht eold fashioned way if you like

I'd definately agree with this. The direction the modern WRC car has taken has altered the driving style massively - or rather it demands a different driving style to maximise performance. As you rightly say drivers such as Sainz, Makkinen and McRae used a much more aggressive driving style than recent winners (such as Loeb).

I guess this is another reason why drivers such as McRae are ill suited to a car like the Xsara, which had been developed and tweaked for a much smoother and less aggressive driving style.

[RotorFan]

That more "aggressive style" is so much more entertaining to watch though, isn't it? When they show highlights reels of Sainz, McRae, Makkinen throwing their cars around it makes modern WRC look so dull. The image of McRae bouncing around his battered, caved in Focus captures what the WRC should be about, to me

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

That more "aggressive style" is so much more entertaining to watch though, isn't it?

Unquestionably! As you say, some of the classic footage of battered cars finishing stages is the most iconic in the sport.

I'm not sure of the stage or the year off the top of my head, but the footage of McRae coming over a small crest on two wheels is pemanently etched into my memory! I'll have to have a trawl through You Tube and try and find the clip.