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Old 1 Dec 2016, 12:26 (Ref:3692676)   #251
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I also had a feeling in the back of my mind that Nico was gonna lose it for some reason, but he didn't and he deserves it
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 13:59 (Ref:3692699)   #252
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Funny that some people say Vettel didn't have good enough tires to threaten Rosberg (who was driving in Hamilton's dirty air for quite a while already) and others feel that Vettel still posed quite a threat to Hamilton's/Mercedes' win.

Both aren't possible at the same time.
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 15:39 (Ref:3692719)   #253
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Funny that some people say Vettel didn't have good enough tires to threaten Rosberg (who was driving in Hamilton's dirty air for quite a while already) and others feel that Vettel still posed quite a threat to Hamilton's/Mercedes' win.

Both aren't possible at the same time.
Exactly! As you and Viva GT stated, Vettels tires were going off just as Rosbergs were, due to following in dirty air. Vettel pitted for Super Softs on lap 37. He'd spent, at least, 12 laps trying to catch Rosberg, on Softs. Vettel's tires would not have had enough longevity (S.Softs= 21laps max by Max). He stressed the tires in the turns and stressed them following Rosberg. Hamilton reduced the amount of wear by 1.Being up front, 2.Drastically reducing cornering speeds.

Formula 1 is all about the "What ifs"-that's why we watch the race. Harte, even you indicated that in post #219 about the concern the team had of a crash-CLEARLY a "what if".

Maybe it's just the way people in different countries/cultures look at what propels someone into the realm of respectability. For me, I thought Nico truly became a worthy champion that night because he aggressively passed another racer during a highly pressurized situation-not something he's used to (even stated that in an interview), and bravely handled the pressure of a multiple world champion TESTING his worth and capability.

I don't know, it's almost like the actions of Hamilton are being equated to a "duel" and instead of Hammy taking 10 steps and turning around to fire, he took eight and shot Rosberg/team in the back! "You broke the rules, Hammy!" This was not a duel, it was a race for one of the championships.
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 16:10 (Ref:3692727)   #254
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to turn the conversation a bit here, given the discussions we have had about some of the other broadcasted messages this season (SV rants for example), is it fair to say that this storm in a teacup, is once again down to the broadcast team's decision to air these messages?

their choice to air it as they did made it sound like Merc was attempting to manipulate the outcome of a drivers title during the last few laps of a title deciding race.

between Merc's dominance, the other teams lack of effort this season (other than Force India that is...so awesome this year), a relatively calm season between the only two drivers with a shot of winning etc etc...is a little mystery and drama for the last 10 laps too much to ask for?

did they really have to air these messages?

perhaps it would not have made any difference in how the post race discussions have taken played out but it is often said 'that ignorance is bliss' and i think this is one of those times.

have your team orders if you must but keep it out of the race...I dont want to see how the sausage is made thank you very much!
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 18:59 (Ref:3692765)   #255
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At that point, there is no doubt in anyone's mind that at that point Hamilton was acting like a spoiled brat, and his actions had become unpredictable. Mercedes obviously weren't prepared to take the risk, so asked him to speed up.
Anyone's? There is in mine. Nothing unpredictable about his actions at all and even less to suggest he was acting like a spoiled brat. I think the emotion of the moment is rather tainting the reality here. He was trying to retain his WDC. Nothing more, nothing less.

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My own view is that Hamilton was less concerned about being Champion again, but in trying to stop Rosberg taking the title. I appreciate that the result would have been the same if he had succeeded, but I think Lewis did not want Nico to win more than he wanted to win himself. If you can follow my tortured reasoning. Either way in trying to drop Nico into the clutches of Vettel, he overdid it, while a legal tactic he took it to the extreme. The actions of a poor loser in my opinion. But then .. I never did like the guy.

And there you have what seems to largely be the root of the debate....... (Which I regret to say is so often the case when two drivers are being compared in F1 discussions).
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 19:15 (Ref:3692771)   #256
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Anyone's? There is in mine. Nothing unpredictable about his actions at all and even less to suggest he was acting like a spoiled brat. I think the emotion of the moment is rather tainting the reality here. He was trying to retain his WDC. Nothing more, nothing less.
Only if you ignore his comments over the radio, such as the one where he said in as many words, 'well, I'm not going to win the championship, so I don't care if I don't win this race'.

That is a spoilt brat speaking, just like a kid that can't score a goal saying that he isn't going to play anymore, and what's more, he's taking his ball away.

And even Rosberg has now admitted that he didn't know just how far Hamilton was prepared to take his actions as he had become so unpredictable, and whether he might try to take him out just to spite him.
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 19:28 (Ref:3692776)   #257
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My own view is that Hamilton was less concerned about being Champion again, but in trying to stop Rosberg taking the title. I appreciate that the result would have been the same if he had succeeded, but I think Lewis did not want Nico to win more than he wanted to win himself. If you can follow my tortured reasoning. Either way in trying to drop Nico into the clutches of Vettel, he overdid it, while a legal tactic he took it to the extreme. The actions of a poor loser in my opinion. But then .. I never did like the guy.
How is it Hamilton was less concerned about being Champion again, but in trying to stop Rosberg taking the title, I don't get that?
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 19:31 (Ref:3692777)   #258
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How is it Hamilton was less concerned about being Champion again, but in trying to stop Rosberg taking the title, I don't get that?
I don't get a lot of the arguments on this thread!
The only way this race was going to get more spiced up was if it was Max defending his WDC!! Looking forward to that one!!
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 19:42 (Ref:3692779)   #259
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And even Rosberg has now admitted that he didn't know just how far Hamilton was prepared to take his actions as he had become so unpredictable, and whether he might try to take him out just to spite him.
thats not what Nico said at all. just a small part of a larger interview where he is basically saying that this whole thing is being overblown.

in private he may hold different feelings, but publicly he has in no way said anything which would add fire to this story. in fact he has gone out of his way to try to quell it.

which is why so many people are speaking to the level of NR's character...he is too mature to keep this story going.

unless of course he is, several days later, still crying about what LH did to him...which of course would then make him the spoiled child right?
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 19:52 (Ref:3692781)   #260
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Anyone's? There is in mine. Nothing unpredictable about his actions at all and even less to suggest he was acting like a spoiled brat. I think the emotion of the moment is rather tainting the reality here. He was trying to retain his WDC. Nothing more, nothing less.




And there you have what seems to largely be the root of the debate....... (Which I regret to say is so often the case when two drivers are being compared in F1 discussions).
AAAMEN!
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 20:10 (Ref:3692792)   #261
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Hamiltons actions are so unpredictable that everyone predicted it. If you read that enough times it becomes deep and meaningful. And unpredictable.
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 20:50 (Ref:3692806)   #262
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thats not what Nico said at all. just a small part of a larger interview where he is basically saying that this whole thing is being overblown.
His words:

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However, as he celebrated in his home town of Wiesbaden on Wednesday, the German also told the N24 broadcaster: "I didn't know how far he (Hamilton) would take it.

"Would he turn completely and try to drive me off the track?
And yes, he has said that it is now getting overblown, and that Hamilton has really driven better than he has ever seen during the latter stages of this season.
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 21:06 (Ref:3692811)   #263
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apologies, i stand corrected.

sad to hear Nico take it to that level. very out of character for him but there you have it.

i guess Merc now have two drivers who both lack humility in victory or grace in defeat.
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 21:30 (Ref:3692821)   #264
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let me apologize for those last two posts...was being more sarcastic then anything else and have now thought better of it.

sorry buddy!
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 22:56 (Ref:3692835)   #265
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And there you have what seems to largely be the root of the debate....... (Which I regret to say is so often the case when two drivers are being compared in F1 discussions).
Hamilton has been very difficult to like lately. My views on him have changed dramatically since 2014. So no, that doesn't have to be the root of the debate. Maybe for some it is, but generally the causality could be running the other way.
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 23:05 (Ref:3692836)   #266
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No problem, chilli

Unfortunately, the situation that Rosberg finds himself in is that the media, not just the sporting side either, appear to think along the same lines as me, and as a result they are putting huge pressure on the poor bloke to dump on Hamilton, for which I don't blame them. But it's making life somewhat difficult for Rosberg, as I cannot remember him ever really having a huge dig at Hamilton and now he's almost being forced to cast Hamilton as the evil Red Baron - hold on a mo, I seem to have got the nationalities the wrong way round.

I think that Rosberg will be just as happy as Hamilton when the furore has all blown away, and he can just enjoy his championship win in peace.
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Old 1 Dec 2016, 23:38 (Ref:3692843)   #267
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Hamiltons actions are so unpredictable that everyone predicted it. If you read that enough times it becomes deep and meaningful. And unpredictable.
I think Hamilton's actions had become unpredictable for Rosberg in the last stages of the race because Hamilton had at that stage clearly lost the WDC, Hamilton had also stated that the race win meant nothing to him, so a contact between the Mercs would have been the only course of action open to Hamilton that could put Rosberg out or shuffled him back behind Vettel and Max, possibly leaving Hamilton with a win to retain the WDC.

This must have been on Rosberg's mind as he clearly had the pace to at least challenge Lewis when he was running 3 seconds a lap of his normal pace, but chose to stay away.
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Old 2 Dec 2016, 00:30 (Ref:3692850)   #268
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Hamilton has been very difficult to like lately. My views on him have changed dramatically since 2014. So no, that doesn't have to be the root of the debate. Maybe for some it is, but generally the causality could be running the other way.
Hamitlon brought back my interest in F1, after the monotony of the Schumacher years but my view of him started to change when he was penalised at the 2011 Monaco GP and 'played the race card', which I thought was unnecessary and though he played it down as a joke, that wasn't the issue for me. What I didn't like was the petulance that went with it and that has become an ever present trait with Hamilton when things don't go his way.
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Old 2 Dec 2016, 09:10 (Ref:3692915)   #269
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Hamitlon brought back my interest in F1, after the monotony of the Schumacher years but my view of him started to change when he was penalised at the 2011 Monaco GP and 'played the race card', which I thought was unnecessary and though he played it down as a joke, that wasn't the issue for me. What I didn't like was the petulance that went with it and that has become an ever present trait with Hamilton when things don't go his way.
Agreed, and more. I thought that he was a breath of fresh air when he first arrived at McLaren, but his, to me anyway, sense of entitlement soon found my admiration for him waning. And his ruthlessness, especially when in close proximity to a team-mate, often became a case of I'm coming through with or without your co-operation. This led to many occasions when the team-mate had to take extreme measures to avoid contact such as having to go off-track, or they simply collided when the other driver failed to yield to Hamilton. Cases in point would be with Button and Rosberg.

But as you say, it's his petulance that really grates, and we are mere outside observers. Can you imagine what it must be like to be his team-mate, or possibly worse, his engineers and team bosses. They have to live with it, and try to somehow contain it from adversely affecting the whole team. And (conspiracy theory coming) it makes me wonder whether this year's change of engineering personnel within the race team wasn't brought about because some of Hamilton's side felt that they had had enough of his throwing his toys out of the pram.
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Old 2 Dec 2016, 09:49 (Ref:3692929)   #270
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Petulant?
Spoilt?
Bad Loser?
Ruthless?
Divisive?


Sounds like pretty much every single multiple WDC we have had over the last 20 years.
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Old 2 Dec 2016, 09:55 (Ref:3692931)   #271
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Hamitlon brought back my interest in F1, after the monotony of the Schumacher years but my view of him started to change when he was penalised at the 2011 Monaco GP and 'played the race card', which I thought was unnecessary and though he played it down as a joke, that wasn't the issue for me. What I didn't like was the petulance that went with it and that has become an ever present trait with Hamilton when things don't go his way.
Having been involved in the media local to LH's home town (Stevenage), I have always held the view that he had a basic character fault. In his early F3000, F1 days it was overlooked by fans and media as his success, and attitude masked the underlying traits. There were instances enough in his first season at McLaren, enough indeed to drive Alonso out of his contract. The public admired his brash approach and resultant success, but with Mercedes not applying the same control that McLaren did on his personal life, sadly his true self has emerged. He is not entirely to blame, as he has been given too much to soon in the way of opportunities to succeed. He now acts exactly like a spoilt ten year old.

A prodigious talent? Yes. A Well rounded individual? Make up your own mind on that one.
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Old 2 Dec 2016, 15:34 (Ref:3693073)   #272
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i can assure you that in his earlier days he was never petulent. expectant of the huge future that awaited him, sure. in his younger years his successes were always mentioned in the same sentence as his apparently 'fortunate' situation with mclaren. i saw the same insecurities in him as i see in other drivers terrified of losing their backing or having lost it, afraid that if they're not 100% physically and mentally ready 100% of the time they'll be overlooked.

i don't think it's petulence now. it's the same stuff i see day in day out from most men - underdeveloped and ignored emotional maturity resulting in snap impulse reactions.
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Old 2 Dec 2016, 15:36 (Ref:3693075)   #273
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He wears his heart on his sleeve and that has certainly meant he will go out and give it a good go in the race
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Old 2 Dec 2016, 17:51 (Ref:3693124)   #274
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Good comments Bella, I tend to agree re male insecurity. A man who is totally secure will often be said to be arrogant, but even that could be the same male insecurity.

Interesting comments, Lewis has just said it is the first time in 18 years the Nico has won a championship in which they both competed. I think this is the same underlying trait. I do wish he had not said it because there are many on the forums that will jump on it as "evidence" of .............

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Old 2 Dec 2016, 18:16 (Ref:3693130)   #275
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JHamilton is the undisputed Champion of the World!JHamilton is the undisputed Champion of the World!JHamilton is the undisputed Champion of the World!JHamilton is the undisputed Champion of the World!JHamilton is the undisputed Champion of the World!JHamilton is the undisputed Champion of the World!JHamilton is the undisputed Champion of the World!JHamilton is the undisputed Champion of the World!JHamilton is the undisputed Champion of the World!JHamilton is the undisputed Champion of the World!JHamilton is the undisputed Champion of the World!
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Originally Posted by bella View Post

i don't think it's petulence now. it's the same stuff i see day in day out from most men - underdeveloped and ignored emotional maturity resulting in snap impulse reactions.
That's bull****!


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