What now for Tonio Liuzzi?

[littleman]

Also, I never said they were better than the other current F1 drivers, just "as good as"

Evaluate any of my named drivers, against a current F1 driver from the same generation, and they all measure up.

Take Kerr for example.He won the British F3 Championship with the tiny Docking outfit and has NEVER had the luxury of a race winning car/team.Imagine what he could have achieved with Manor/ASM/ART then McLaren!

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by littleman

Evaluate any of my named drivers, against a current F1 driver from the same generation, and they all measure up.

I had plenty of time last season to evaluate how one of your list, Alex Wurz, measured up, and I'd have to say it wasn't favourable. He certainly, catergorically, was not as good as Rosberg for instance.

[Chiefy]

Littleman, I suspect you are sadly mistaken.

With the exception of a few moneymen near the back of the grid (Sakon Yamamoto springs vehemently to mind, though Pedro Diniz and Enrique Bernoldi would be other good examples), the F1 drivers of today are where they are for their superior ability to race.

If you think anyone on that list could hold down a sixteen year career and become the most experienced F1 driver of all-time with nine race wins to his name (as Barrichello will achieve in the 2008 season), or else just notch up 13 race wins (like David Coulthard), then I think you're crazy.

And if you think they're better than present-day Barrichello or present-day Coulthard, then I'd love to know what makes you think they could take on Rosberg, Kubica, Kovalainen, Massa or Heidfeld and win.

[littleman]

That's true. But how did he measure up against Schumacher,Sutil,Albers,Sato,Fisicella,Vettel,Barrichello,Coulthard,Liuzzi,Trulli,Webber,Yamamoto,Da vidson and Speed? - ie more than 50% of the grid! Better or worse?

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by littleman

That's true. But how did he measure up against Schumacher,Sutil,Albers,Sato,Fisicella,Vettel,Barrichello,Coulthard,Liuzzi,Trulli,Webber,Yamamoto,Da vidson and Speed? - ie more than 50% of the grid! Better or worse?

You said there were 50 drivers out there who were as good as the remaining 19 on the F1 grid. Either you chose your wording incorrectly, or you're moving the goalposts.

[littleman]

Hang on a bit. Barrichello and Coulthard drove for Ferrari and McClaren - you don't get better cars than these! Both of them got totally blitzed by their team-mates year after year! Schumacher & Hakkinen won seven World Titles between them whilst these two never got close.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by littleman

Hang on a bit. Barrichello and Coulthard drove for Ferrari and McClaren - you don't get better cars than these! Both of them got totally blitzed by their team-mates year after year! Schumacher & Hakkinen won seven World Titles between them whilst these two never got close.

The fact that someone is not as good as Schumacher or Hakkinen does not immediately mean they are as average as Pizzonia or Kerr. Ability is not measured in these black and white terms.

[littleman]

Not moving the goal posts, you've just chosen to match Rosberg against Wurz.OK then, lets match my drivers against current F1 drivers.

Wurz vs Sato? Montoya vs Webber? Carroll vs Sutil? Wheldon vs Barrichello?
Paffet vs Davidson? Premat vs Nakajima?

Do you think that's a fair swap?

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by littleman

Not moving the goal posts

I beg to differ. IIRC you initally suggested that "There are at least 50 other drivers floating around who are just as good as the remaining 19 on the grid", when it appears that what you actually meant was "There are several drivers outside F1 who are as good as (or better than) than some of the drivers currently on the grid". Do you see what I'm saying?

[littleman]

Yes,fair point, perhaps I should have made myself clearer.However, I am adamant that I could replace any named driver in F1 (excluding Raikkonen,Alonso & Hamilton) with a direct replacement of equal talent,plus I could draw from a pool of at least 50 drivers. How's that?

[Chiefy]

So name me one driver (currently outside of F1) who could have made two podiums and five 4ths in 2007 driving the BMW, who is not Nick Heidfeld.

Plumping for someone like Montoya won't cut it. We know he can drive F1 already - he's already done it with success.

[littleman]

Easy. Paffett,Carroll,Wheldon and probably Premat.

[alonso11]

For Paffet being faster than Pedro de la Rosa or at least coming close to it for at least one single time would be a good start.

Wheldon.. is like errm , last time he turned a streering wheel to the right was in 2000, achieving trully Heidfeld-like results like losing out on some 3rd class American championship to Buddy Rice.

For time to time I did consider Premat good, but looking back now, he spent 4 long years in the ASM/ART camp not managing to beat one single team-mate of his during that period (let alone coming close to any sort of title) .. thats a pretty good reason not to be even rumoured with an F1 drive, safe to say his backing was greater than his talent.

Adam Caroll is quite a good pick actually, a trully great fighter, always good to watch, fast in anything in general and always very impressive testing for Honda in particular ... Would be a shame if F1 teams overlooked him and I would replace Davidson with him any day, but Heidfeld? Heidfeld spent years establishing himself as one of the best drivers in the world having and beating team-mates like Raikkonen and Massa, claiming that Caroll could be just as good is a bit unwary thing to do, it is also unfounded since Heidfeld actually won titles (all of them) before coming to F1.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by alonso11

Wheldon.. is like errm , last time he turned a streering wheel to the right was in 2000, achieving trully Heidfeld-like results like losing out on some 3rd class American championship to Buddy Rice.

Buddy Rice has never won the IRL, as far as I'm aware, yet Wheldon has, so that's a little unfair.

Still, I'd rather have Heidfeld in my car than Wheldon.

[Down F0rce]

Buddy Rice won the Indy 500 in 2004 and other races.

[Marbot]

Liuzzi is confirmed as test driver for Force India.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41582

[Chiefy]

This theory is a bit "out there" - but if Fisichella becomes discontented at his new team for reasons of progress (or lack thereof) we could still see a Liuzzi comeback... Not that I'm suggesting Fisi won't make the best job he can of it.

And Littleman, I don't think any of them could have done what Heidfeld did with the car in 2007. He's a top line driver.

[arthurive]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Liuzzi is confirmed as test driver for Force India.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41582

Liuzzi hanging on to his F1 career by the thinnest of threads

[Taprobane]

I'd love to see another driver with equivalent talent to Rosberg, Kovalainen, Button or as has been mentioned Heidfeld. I also think that there is still another tier of driver in F1 which is above any other level of motorsport. Driver such as Massa, Kubica, Glock, Couthard, Fisichella, Trulli, Davidson, Sutil and Piquet.

Mabye there are a few drivers who never had the luck or money of whatever to make it to F1, but I don't think there are even close to 50.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Down F0rce

Buddy Rice won the Indy 500 in 2004 and other races.

I know. But he never won the title, as alonso11 stated.

[ralf fan]

Test driver for Force India. Surely the F1 scrap book beckons for poor Tonio.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

Surely the F1 scrap book beckons for poor Tonio.

You mean scrap-heap surely?

[OZ_HCR32]

Old thread revival...with talk about FI keeping him around for 2011 I think I am ready to say "we have seen enough....there is surely better out there"

Sutil seems to be comfortably quicker and Liuzzi too often is the guy dtruggling to get into Q2.

So, this original thread was a "shame he didnt get another/better chance" . He has got it with FI and i think its time to get someone else into the FI seat for 2011

[E.B]

I would agree..... he has been very unimpressive on the whole, and only warranted his place on rare occassions.

[strider]

Enter Paul di Resta?