Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 18 May 2016, 13:32 (Ref:3642642)   #1
chunterer
Race Official
Veteran
 
chunterer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Down the end of my road
Posts: 15,697
chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!
Carlos Sainz Jnr - Could he get a top drive in 2017?

I was reading Mark Hughes analysis of Carlos' time together against Max and it makes very interesting reading and is precisely the sort of analysis we all should be doing when working out the relative merits of drivers.

Essentially what MH was saying is that when you purely take all the races last years where there were no mitigating circumstances Max beat Carlos 6-4 but there was probably only a 10th of a second between them on outright pace, maximum.

When you look at what Max did in the RB straight away in Catalunya, this paints Carlos in a very positive light and bodes very well for Sainz's long term F1 career.

Would Ferrari consider him as a replacement for Kimi?

Should we consider him in the same breadth as Max, Stoffel etc as potentially one of the top 3-5 drivers of the next 10 years or so?
chunterer is offline  
__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?"
"No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
Quote
Old 18 May 2016, 13:54 (Ref:3642654)   #2
Biscuits In A Red Bull
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
United Kingdom
Posts: 2,650
Biscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridBiscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
We should, but I doubt he'll get the opportunities as he's not a darling of RBR like Ricciardo and Verstappen were. However should he leave RBR at a good time then who knows. Right now I wouldn't bet on it though, as much as I think he should be put in that league.
Biscuits In A Red Bull is offline  
__________________
"Is this stock car racing or is this motorsport?!" - John Cleland
Quote
Old 18 May 2016, 15:06 (Ref:3642657)   #3
chunterer
Race Official
Veteran
 
chunterer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Down the end of my road
Posts: 15,697
chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!
I still think Magnussen could be a top liner in the future as well. But again does his face fit as well as his ability?
chunterer is offline  
Quote
Old 18 May 2016, 16:47 (Ref:3642671)   #4
BSchneiderFan
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
United Kingdom
London, UK
Posts: 5,721
BSchneiderFan is going for a new lap record!BSchneiderFan is going for a new lap record!BSchneiderFan is going for a new lap record!BSchneiderFan is going for a new lap record!BSchneiderFan is going for a new lap record!BSchneiderFan is going for a new lap record!
Much of the next 3-5 years depends on that second Ferrari seat. If Ricciardo gets it, Sainz might be promoted to Red Bull. Or Sainz might get it himself. Or Bottas could get it. Or Ferrari could surprise and confound us all by keeping Räikkonen on for another year - he still shows flashes of speed but won't trouble Vettel over the balance of a season, an approach Ferrari has been willing to take to its driver pairings in the past.
BSchneiderFan is offline  
Quote
Old 19 May 2016, 04:39 (Ref:3642772)   #5
dsg
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Thailand
Chonburi
Posts: 2,525
dsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the griddsg should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
I was reading Mark Hughes analysis of Carlos' time together against Max and it makes very interesting reading and is precisely the sort of analysis we all should be doing when working out the relative merits of drivers.

Essentially what MH was saying is that when you purely take all the races last years where there were no mitigating circumstances Max beat Carlos 6-4 but there was probably only a 10th of a second between them on outright pace, maximum.

When you look at what Max did in the RB straight away in Catalunya, this paints Carlos in a very positive light and bodes very well for Sainz's long term F1 career.

Would Ferrari consider him as a replacement for Kimi?

Should we consider him in the same breadth as Max, Stoffel etc as potentially one of the top 3-5 drivers of the next 10 years or so?
I think Carlos is every bit as good as Max, however the result Max achieved in Spain was like a perfect storm, but in a good way. The track being very suited to the Red Bulls, difficult for all to overtake even with DRS, the Mercs taking each other out, Red Bull and Ferrari splitting strategies which resulted in their "lead" drivers being on the worse strategy because the tyres lasted much longer than anticipated by everyone including Pirelli.

Had Carlos or Daniil been in the Red Bull and qualified as well as Max (and that is the question) would they have ended the weekend with the same result.

Max was handed some good cards but all kudos to him as he drove flawlessly to make the most of it.
dsg is offline  
__________________
ยินดีที่ได้รู้จัก
Quote
Old 19 May 2016, 09:24 (Ref:3642811)   #6
Neppatsrev Xam
Racer
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Netherlands
Posts: 133
Neppatsrev Xam should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsg View Post
I think Carlos is every bit as good as Max, however the result Max achieved in Spain was like a perfect storm, but in a good way. The track being very suited to the Red Bulls, difficult for all to overtake even with DRS, the Mercs taking each other out, Red Bull and Ferrari splitting strategies which resulted in their "lead" drivers being on the worse strategy because the tyres lasted much longer than anticipated by everyone including Pirelli.

Had Carlos or Daniil been in the Red Bull and qualified as well as Max (and that is the question) would they have ended the weekend with the same result.

Max was handed some good cards but all kudos to him as he drove flawlessly to make the most of it.
Carlos was beaten by Max by a big margin last year and in the first 4 races of this year as well, he might be close in qualifying , but in races Max is much better.
Neppatsrev Xam is offline  
Quote
Old 19 May 2016, 09:48 (Ref:3642814)   #7
steve_r
Veteran
 
steve_r's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Lord Howe Island
European Capital of Culture 2008
Posts: 3,519
steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!
Sainz largely matched his teammate in the early part of last year, but then made a few mistakes towards the end of last year (he is allowed I suppose, being a rookie). He also has not started this season particularly strongly.

Ferrari have the budget and lure to tempt the very best drivers in the world.
Is Sainz good enough for F1? - yes.
Is he one of the top 5 or 6 drivers in F1? - no.
Will he get a Ferrari seat - no. There are plenty people ahead of him in the queue, including a certain Mr Grosjean.
steve_r is online now  
__________________
It's just my opinion.
Quote
Old 19 May 2016, 09:56 (Ref:3642819)   #8
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 18,739
FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!
If Rici moves up Sainz is the first choice to replace him but I don't think that will happen before 2018.

Still believe Sainz is very quick but compared to Verstappen he lacks racecraft.
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 19 May 2016, 10:55 (Ref:3642833)   #9
sizzle
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Darwin
Posts: 3,525
sizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE View Post
Still believe Sainz is very quick but compared to Verstappen he lacks racecraft.
That is an interesting observation considering he has quite a few more years racing in cars than Max.
sizzle is offline  
Quote
Old 19 May 2016, 13:15 (Ref:3642880)   #10
Paradise City
Veteran
 
Paradise City's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Bhutan
Dublin
Posts: 4,320
Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!
He has better prospects than Kyvat. But he's a bit unfortunate to be surrounded by so many hotshots, it takes the edge of his career momentum. He's a little eclipsed - if only in terms of perception. He could wind up like Hulkenberg, just failing to get to the top tier.
Paradise City is offline  
__________________
If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse.
-Henry Ford
Quote
Old 19 May 2016, 19:06 (Ref:3642967)   #11
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
I agree with those that what Sainz lacks compared with Max, is racecraft. Carlos is more 'let it come to you' driver, while Max will go for it regardless. So I think Sainz will be around a while, but I can't see him getting a top drive myself.
S griffin is online now  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 19 May 2016, 23:03 (Ref:3643023)   #12
chunterer
Race Official
Veteran
 
chunterer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Down the end of my road
Posts: 15,697
chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
I agree with those that what Sainz lacks compared with Max, is racecraft. Carlos is more 'let it come to you' driver, while Max will go for it regardless. So I think Sainz will be around a while, but I can't see him getting a top drive myself.
What do we mean by 'racecraft'?

He clearly has the confidence and feel for overtaking...
chunterer is offline  
Quote
Old 20 May 2016, 00:43 (Ref:3643043)   #13
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradise City View Post
He has better prospects than Kyvat. But he's a bit unfortunate to be surrounded by so many hotshots, it takes the edge of his career momentum. He's a little eclipsed - if only in terms of perception. He could wind up like Hulkenberg, just failing to get to the top tier.
I really believe that the only thing that has stood in the way of getting into the top tier is his size and weight, he has everything else, and the regulators should address the problem.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 20 May 2016, 05:06 (Ref:3643111)   #14
Neppatsrev Xam
Racer
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Netherlands
Posts: 133
Neppatsrev Xam should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
What do we mean by 'racecraft'?

He clearly has the confidence and feel for overtaking...
The Singapore GP of last year is a good example

where Max had 2 clean overtakes on Grosjean and Maldonado, Sainz had to force both off track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBqU_rb0NHk
Neppatsrev Xam is offline  
Quote
Old 20 May 2016, 21:26 (Ref:3643334)   #15
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 42,422
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
I really believe that the only thing that has stood in the way of getting into the top tier is his size and weight, he has everything else, and the regulators should address the problem.
Isn't Sainz lighter and shorter than Verstappen (just)?
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
Quote
Old 21 May 2016, 02:45 (Ref:3643367)   #16
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
Isn't Sainz lighter and shorter than Verstappen (just)?
Sorry, I was referring to the Hulk Adam!
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 21 May 2016, 13:41 (Ref:3643432)   #17
Adam43
14th
1% Club
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 42,422
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Oh yes, sorry.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously.
Quote
Old 22 May 2016, 04:50 (Ref:3643554)   #18
RWill2073
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,515
RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!
I don't think it's fair to compare sainz to verstappen. At least to expect him to be equal to verstappen. Verstapen is from a different planet. I'm extremely excited to watch f1 just to see what his career brings. He's just otherworldly. But I'd rather have sainz than Kimi/button/bottas/massa. Really the Williams team is lagging with both their drivers, imo.

I feel like sainz is good enough to be the #2 at Ferrari or #1 at williams, #2 at mclaren. I hope he gets a shot, but then again, I hope magnussen gets a shot in a competitive car and also that Alonso gets another shot to compete, and there's just so few seats to to around.
RWill2073 is offline  
Quote
Old 28 May 2016, 09:35 (Ref:3645027)   #19
Razzzor
Veteran
 
Razzzor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
New Zealand
New Zealand
Posts: 1,157
Razzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
I don't think it's fair to compare sainz to verstappen. At least to expect him to be equal to verstappen. Verstapen is from a different planet. I'm extremely excited to watch f1 just to see what his career brings. He's just otherworldly. But I'd rather have sainz than Kimi/button/bottas/massa. Really the Williams team is lagging with both their drivers, imo.

I feel like sainz is good enough to be the #2 at Ferrari or #1 at williams, #2 at mclaren. I hope he gets a shot, but then again, I hope magnussen gets a shot in a competitive car and also that Alonso gets another shot to compete, and there's just so few seats to to around.
Agree with all of that. I feel that Bottas has been a bit overhyped over the years, I don't think he'd do any better at Ferrari than Kimi does. Sainz could be faster than then both, however he's definitely been left it Verstappens shadow. I don't ever really remember being impressed by Sainz in a grand prix. Has he ever been close to getting a DOTR on here? Verstappens had it a number of times. I know people keep saying Sainz is just as good as Verstappen, but I'm not seeing it.

Grosjean deserves a better drive, as does Magnussen so we can see what he's got. Hulkenbergs shares have gone now since he's been partnered with Perez, and I must admit Alonso's shares have also gone down a bit after he's failed to really stand out over Button.

Sainz in a better seat in 2017? About the only thing I could see is a Williams. He'll have to properly beat Kyvat though.
Razzzor is offline  
Quote
Old 30 May 2016, 07:48 (Ref:3645729)   #20
chunterer
Race Official
Veteran
 
chunterer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Down the end of my road
Posts: 15,697
chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razzzor View Post
Agree with all of that. I feel that Bottas has been a bit overhyped over the years, I don't think he'd do any better at Ferrari than Kimi does. Sainz could be faster than then both, however he's definitely been left it Verstappens shadow. I don't ever really remember being impressed by Sainz in a grand prix. Has he ever been close to getting a DOTR on here? Verstappens had it a number of times. I know people keep saying Sainz is just as good as Verstappen, but I'm not seeing it.

Grosjean deserves a better drive, as does Magnussen so we can see what he's got. Hulkenbergs shares have gone now since he's been partnered with Perez, and I must admit Alonso's shares have also gone down a bit after he's failed to really stand out over Button.

Sainz in a better seat in 2017? About the only thing I could see is a Williams. He'll have to properly beat Kyvat though.
Based on the Monaco performances and results we might have to call a lot of your post into question?
chunterer is offline  
Quote
Old 30 May 2016, 09:46 (Ref:3645755)   #21
Razzzor
Veteran
 
Razzzor's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
New Zealand
New Zealand
Posts: 1,157
Razzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazzzor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid

Monaco is all about track position so doesn't really show accurate performances.

Although Perez again beat Hulk, what by a mere 80 seconds. Hulk was held up sure, but he wasn't going to match Perez.

Alonso beat Button but I don't think it was by that much. Despite being in clean air for much of the race. Not sure though, Button just gets listed as 1 lap down so I can't see the real gaps, but before he got lapped I remember him not being far behind.

Sainz; stuck in traffic most of the race. 5th fastest lap though.

Verstappen was fantastically charging through the field and got to Sainz before he crashed. Think he could have been on for 5th IF he continued to pass like he was. But he was bound to crash eventually.

Can't remember what happened to Bottas and the socially inept one (Kimi), apart from him driving through the tunnel on top of his wing.
Razzzor is offline  
Quote
Old 30 May 2016, 11:13 (Ref:3645774)   #22
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
Sainz seems to have raised his game since Max left. He's certainly leading the team well
S griffin is online now  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 31 May 2016, 07:03 (Ref:3645985)   #23
chunterer
Race Official
Veteran
 
chunterer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Down the end of my road
Posts: 15,697
chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!chunterer is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Sainz seems to have raised his game since Max left. He's certainly leading the team well
Damon Hill reckoned he or Perez might look interesting in a Ferrari?
chunterer is offline  
Quote
Old 31 May 2016, 11:56 (Ref:3646022)   #24
RWill2073
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,515
RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Sainz seems to have raised his game since Max left. He's certainly leading the team well
I'm not sure he's raised his game so much as he's not being shown up by verstappen as his teammate anymore. He's going to look a lot better now by virtue of not being compared directly to verstappen.
RWill2073 is offline  
Quote
Old 31 May 2016, 12:18 (Ref:3646023)   #25
Paradise City
Veteran
 
Paradise City's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Bhutan
Dublin
Posts: 4,320
Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!Paradise City is going for a new world record!
I think Sainz is a bit more disciplined, a bit more steadier. The promotion of Verstappen may have given him a little more room to breathe.
Paradise City is offline  
__________________
If I had asked my customer what they wanted, they would've said a faster horse.
-Henry Ford
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Carlos Sainz 26th WRC win in Rally of Argentina alfasud Rallying & Rallycross 12 27 Jul 2004 22:30
Carlos Checa's relation???? OVERSTEER Bike Racing 10 24 May 2002 12:14
Rouse Jnr linked with alfa drive pb btcc Touring Car Racing 10 21 Jul 2001 13:39


All times are GMT. The time now is 16:14.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.