Current F1 Power Supply Units

[old man]

Must admit to not following all angles of the Red Bull engine moves but recall seeing a suggestion that Renault would supply the basic unit and RBR do the rest with the help of Mario Illien. Did I dream that or is it a possibility?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by old man

Must admit to not following all angles of the Red Bull engine moves but recall seeing a suggestion that Renault would supply the basic unit and RBR do the rest with the help of Mario Illien. Did I dream that or is it a possibility?

According to all the names involved it will not happen so it must be true. The media have got a poor batting record in all this and we have yet to see any exclusive/prediction or so called fact that has proven to be true.

[VIVA GT]

I see that Red Bull are going to revert to the older specification Renault PSU for the final Grand Prix this weekend.
Are they hoping for reverse grid penalties by doing so?

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by old man

Must admit to not following all angles of the Red Bull engine moves but recall seeing a suggestion that Renault would supply the basic unit and RBR do the rest with the help of Mario Illien. Did I dream that or is it a possibility?

Originally Posted by Casper

According to all the names involved it will not happen so it must be true. The media have got a poor batting record in all this and we have yet to see any exclusive/prediction or so called fact that has proven to be true.

I am sure I read somewhere that the FIA said no to that.

[Pingguest]

Thankfully the so-called client engine is of the table. A two-tier series was never going to work.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Thankfully the so-called client engine is of the table. A two-tier series was never going to work.

This would be as an alternative to the current ten-tier series, where the manufacturers capriciously provide second and third rate engines to teams whilst charging them eye watering amounts.
Next year it will be a nine-tier system and RBR can donate their share of the F1 revenue pie to the manufacturers who don't think they are worthwhile participants.



I think we need the simpler engines Pingy.

[wnut]

I guess I should treat this as a reality check though, from a Denis Jenkinson interview with Motorsport Magazine in 1979!

“Motor racing is not showbiz, like your little friend Jackie Stewart says it is,” he comments later in the programme, “He’s wrong. It’s hard commercial business and it always has been. It might look like showbiz on the surface, but deep down it’s hard business and I love it” We were on the verge of the grand prix at Dijon being cancelled because of a falling out between Ecclestone/Mosley and Balestre over the BMW Procar series. “One thing we must be thankful for, Jenks points out, “is that it’s purely politics and nothing more than that. Unlike the similar situation in America, in the USAC racing where it started off as big business and power politics and they then dabbled with technicalities and that was fatal. It screwed up the USAC world.”

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1...nis-jenkinson/

[wolfhound]

Red Bull have said they have an engine deal for next year but did not name who it is.

It seems as though it will be a French built motor though and is due to be confirmed soon.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121999

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by wnut

This would be as an alternative to the current ten-tier series, where the manufacturers capriciously provide second and third rate engines to teams whilst charging them eye watering amounts.
Next year it will be a nine-tier system and RBR can donate their share of the F1 revenue pie to the manufacturers who don't think they are worthwhile participants.



I think we need the simpler engines Pingy.

It is only recently in F1 that anything near parity has been achieved for engines supplied to different teams. At the moment it only deviates from that a little compared to previously. Mercedes were generally one of the best for supplying same spec. engines too. However F1 has always been unfair and boring.

[GHOGH]

I was hoping BMW would make a psu for red bull and put out the back door quietly until they knew it was competitive before putting their name on it.
Red Bull sponsor a DTM BMW.
BMW - have the i3/i8 cars for the electric/ hybrid marketing angle.

[wnut]

Good article on the politics involved in the independent engine supply deal.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1...vs-marchionne/

Personally, I hope it comes about!

[Casper]

My glass ball must have been working well when I suggested there was a plan to all this and RB were neck deep in it, that is if any of what is written has any truth to it. Motorsport has a bit more credibility to it then the usual tabloid motor noters so I read it with less than my usual cynicism. Ferrari are not going to take the proposal and the changes in governance (which I don't understand) lying down as they now have shareholders to consider and a boss who is very versed in getting what he wants. The fat lady has not finished singing on this one and I wonder who will finish up with the black eye at the end of the day.

[Richard C]

I read that article the other day and found it interesting. My thoughts are...

1. Its easier in hindsight to weave a tale that fits various facts. It doesn't however make it completely true.
2. It talks to Mercedes and Ferrari being played. That may or may not be true.

Overall, my opinion is that I believe the basic concept of what is happening "now" regarding attempts to break the stranglehold on power by the larger teams. I am however on the fence regarding potential Mercedes or Ferrari deals being nothing but ploys to set the stage for what is going on now. I suspect that if RBR could have worked a deal with Mercedes (and maybe Ferrari) for equal power units they would have gone that route and things might have been different. I do accept that those options were VERY unlikely to happen. I think the current plan just developed naturally as other things didn't work out. In short a valid "Plan B" that ended up happening when "Plan A" didn't work, even if it was a longshot.

Richard

[Oldtony]

It really is rather sad that what is probably the era of F1 contributing to the general wellbeing of motoring, the environment and the ongoing sustainability of personal private transportation is being discussed in terms of the ego battles between a bunch of geriatrics who won't retire for the good of the sport.
We have seen the development of hybrid power unite offering levels of efficiency in recovery of energy from a given amount of fuel that exceed the targets foreshadowed.
This has been achieved by a degree of integration between systems, ICE, Turbine and electrical which offer a future for the continuation of personal transportation that was beginning to look very grim.
Let's face it the current units in F1 are the most advanced bit of engineering compared to road going units that we have seen in years. At last F1 has matched Sports Car levels of technology. If that is Max's legacy to F1 he should be very proud rather than being a party to it's destruction.
What are the problems.
1) A perceived lack of noise? Sorry that is the opinion of a few. There are many of us who prefer the more subdued, less damaging note, of the current PU's.
2) One manufacturer has become dominant? That's never happened before? Perhaps a re-crafting of the regulations to allow development to continue would help to move things closer but please lets not use it as an excuse for the luddites to bring the sport down.
3) Cost will always be a problem for a small team. If they can't afford it they shouldn't be there. Perhaps an effort to bring back BMW, Toyota, Ford and Jaguar, and maybe tempt GM,VAG, Hyundai etc would be more productive than attempting to save Marrusia, Sauber etc. But the Bernie, Max, Jean et.al. would have to deal with people who were much harder to push around and I doubt that is what they want
4) Distribution of the money on a more equitable basis could go a long way towards putting some foundation under the wobbly edifice. CVC and Bernie have to go!
Here endeth the rant!

[wnut]

I am afraid that I don’t understand where you get the idea that F1 is contributing toward current road car development. All the current PU’s are doing is trying to legitimize the popular technology that the road car manufacturers are trying to market. The technology is not innovative, is in common use and is restricted in both performance and specification.
The F1 engine manufacturers have managed to turn the PU’s they requested into significant cash flow opportunity because nobody but a current manufacturer is prepared to spend R&D resources on a fully explored technology; motor-generators and batteries.
The whole design of the cars has been compromised by a 40% increase in the weight of the cars, restrictive axle loadings, and making the running of the technology compulsory. 200 kg of fat has no legitimate place on an F1 car!
1) Noise does add a certain excitement, but is not in itself vital.
2) Nobody has ever achieved 15 straight front row lockouts in F1 before, ever. The restriction of development in F1 has no place or business in motor racing.
3) The monopoly costs of the power units are being determined by the manufacturers and the Force India, Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Williams, and Marussia entrants.
4) An outside engine supplier would cap the cost of engines to the non manufacturer teams.

[wnut]

Oh, and the Porsche, Koeniggsig and McLaren road car KERS systems are far more advanced than the current F1 specs.

[Oldtony]

Wnut I think you underestimate the level of R&D and it's gains in PU efficiency brought about by the pressure ofF1 development.
Certainly the principle of hybrid technology is used in many road cars. This in fact is what makes that area of R&D attractive to manufacturers in F1 as it is the lessons of integration involved, it's software and driveability control and the balance between MGU-K and MGU-H with variable speed turbocharging using capacitor or battery controlled system together with the basic ICE that has been so impressive.
From what I can gather from some of thye more in depth tech forums current energy recovery efficiency from fuel used is approaching 50%. That of course is way beyond anything in any other system that I can find reference too. And with the money input so it should be.
Why is that important? Because the whole concept of independently fuelled personal transportation in the future for all but the very rich will demand levels of efficiency way beyond present.
Bluntly if F1 gives up the effort to provide technical leadership it just becomes another entertainment game for manipulation by whatever bunch of egos are in charge at the time.
Certainly there are opportunities to increase the development return by dropping some of the current artificial limits and freeing the ability of those not at the front to catch up.
But please let's not go back to the donkey power days of NA multicylinder lumps as some seem to be sggesting. We deserve much better than that.

[Casper]

IMHO hybrid is a dead duck in the water.

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/c...10-glkf41.html

Working in five year design cycles as the industry does it has about six cycles to achieve the goal set by the agreement and hybrids will waste time and dilute the effort that is available to the signatories to achieve their goal. The only thing I can see being a problem is long distance heavy transport and we are yet to see any significant moves in that direction.

I think F1 is barking up the wrong tree, release the technical brakes and let the manufacturers freely develop and upgrade as they want and we might see some use for hybrid in racing and that development be passed over to the world's road fleet but in general hybrids won't be around. There should be no specification on the PU just a maximum fuel use and let the engineers be at it if they are serious about F1 being a research tool in this area. Currently it is a gimmick because in reality they have restricted the designs and are in the process of limiting the end result by putting restrictions on costs.

[wnut]

Bernie still seems to be sticking to his independent engine theory:

http://www.pitpass.com/55355/Ecclest...to-F1-survival

"We must not allow F1 to be destroyed," he insisted. "But if we continue as we do at the moment we're right on course to destroy it. I won't let that happen."

And

"I think the majority of our audience isn't interested in what engines we run. They don't care about our highly complex technology either. They want exciting and entertaining races and lots of different winners. And this is what F1 has to deliver."


"With the engine of an alternative supplier we want to boost the competition and we want to make F1 more competitive throughout the field."

No arguments here!

[Casper]

He likes putting a noose around his neck doesn't he, one supplier makes the whole thing only a little more tolerable, it should be open slather for any company not already supplying hybrid PU's. It also stops a sole supplier charging what they like as two or more will keep the price down. For a supposedly clever man he does some daft things sometimes.

Now he is saying that F1 has led everyone up the garden path and should be using conventional motors, yeah right, that will create friends amongst the present manufacturers I don't think. He seriously thinks they are going to be happy campers when he decides that hybrids are not a good idea and this grand experiment has not been a success.

I still think that if F1 want to be relevant in years to come they will finish up going all electric and guess what, someone has beaten them to that. It is inevitable as there is no other viable path if the manufacturers are headed that way with their road fleets. Just about every major manufacturer seems to be heading that way even Porsche have recently announced an all electric car.

The shift to all electric will have a huge impact on motorsport from the bottom to the top and if the sport does not remain viable for entry level participation the effect will be huge and possibly fatal. The years ahead will be interesting to say the least.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by wnut

Bernie still seems to be sticking to his independent engine theory:

"I think the majority of our audience isn't interested in what engines we run. They don't care about our highly complex technology either. They want exciting and entertaining races and lots of different winners. And this is what F1 has to deliver."

Certainly the audience wants exciting racing, but they are also attracted by the fact that F1 is (supposedly) the peak of motor racing in terms of speed, technology and degree of difficulty. Let's face it what Bernie is advocating is just another spec. series. Even when they provide close racing, multiple winners and even a bit of wheel to wheel mayhem no spec series has survived long term as a truly INTERNATIONAL high profile form of racing.


"With the engine of an alternative supplier we want to boost the competition and we want to make F1 more competitive throughout the field."

No arguments here!

Be careful what you wish for.

What Bernie is saying is that he wants the alternative supplier to be dominant to bring back the DFV days when he was able to play the small garageist individual teams off against each other to gain and maintain his control.

Yes F1 is under threat, but that threat comes from it's management structures inability to deal with "disruption caused by technology" and their unwillingness to cede power.
F1 has done a great technical job within the artificial limits set by my fellow geriatrics, but this has been talked down by Bernie, Max et al in their greedy and ego driven efforts to maintain control.
Casper, you are right in that the threat to F1 becoming irrelevant with the development of electric vehicles is very real. I differ in that I think there could be a medium/long term part of the market supplied by ever more efficient hybrids.

[Casper]

I don't think they can afford to go down the hybrid path if they are to keep to the timetable put up in Paris, they simply have not got time. Remember the aim is zero emissions at the tail pipe by 2050, in effect no tail pipe if the vehicle is all electric, Hydrogen might get a tail pipe I guess. I bet that mob of geriatrics do not plan for this and what it will do for motorsport, forward thinking will never be their strong point.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Be careful what you wish for.

What Bernie is saying is that he wants the alternative supplier to be dominant to bring back the DFV days when he was able to play the small garageist individual teams off against each other to gain and maintain his control.

Yes F1 is under threat, but that threat comes from it's management structures inability to deal with "disruption caused by technology" and their unwillingness to cede power.
F1 has done a great technical job within the artificial limits set by my fellow geriatrics, but this has been talked down by Bernie, Max et al in their greedy and ego driven efforts to maintain control.
Casper, you are right in that the threat to F1 becoming irrelevant with the development of electric vehicles is very real. I differ in that I think there could be a medium/long term part of the market supplied by ever more efficient hybrids.

Currently all we have is a parade of "black boxes" none of which even comes close to the works Mercedes "black box." I am still deeply suspicious that carrying 200kg of complexity around that only produces 4MJ of energy is in anyway fuel efficient, it requires more energy to accelerate than it ever recovers.
We do not know how well any of these PU's work, only that the Mercedes unit is way better than anything else on the grid, and this is allowing Mercedes to manipulate everything that happens on a GP weekend.

If Bernie's independent engines are better than the current PU's then the manufacturers can upgrade to similar units of their own manufacture, and we will get much better racing. A 500kg, 1000 bhp car is always going to be a better racing car than a 700kg car. Stupid aerodynamics aside.

Bernie is at least interested in improving the show, the manufacturers like Mercedes are just interested in winning on their own terms.

Fair point about being careful what you wish for though!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wnut

Currently all we have is a parade of "black boxes" none of which even comes close to the works Mercedes "black box."
We do not know how well any of these PU's work, only that the Mercedes unit is way better than anything else on the grid, and this is allowing Mercedes to manipulate everything that happens on a GP weekend.

If Bernie's independent engines are better than the current PU's then the manufacturers can upgrade to similar units of their own manufacture, and we will get much better racing. Stupid aerodynamics aside.

F1 will not future proof itself with old technology.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

F1 will not future proof itself with old technology.

But we have no idea what is happening in the current cars.
There is a specification they must conform to, and everything else is SECRET!

So what's the point?

Its good because they tell you its good?