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Old 13 Jul 2009, 07:33 (Ref:2500568)   #1
terence
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Gentlemans Racing?

How often have the words "Driving too aggressively" been heard in the paddock?What is it with some drivers who seem to think that close racing mean's that the other driver [who is invariably quicker and need's to get past] is being aggressive?. Do we want to race or just drive a high speed demonstration? Its strange the different comments heard when a slowish driver gets fairly and squarely overtaken and blown into the weeds.I would be interested in other views on this phenomenon.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 07:44 (Ref:2500576)   #2
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Looking from the outside, I tend to use that desription for drivers who regularly lock up, going, for example, into the Russell chicane at Snet, rarely achieving the proper line and often, at best removing the marker posts, at worse having to straightline. Another example is where an overtaking driver takes an over optimistic lunge up the inside leaving the other car with panel damage, or where the overtaking car forces the other onto the grass to complete his/her overtake. Of course, they might then claim that they had to be 'over aggressive' because the other driver was 'over defensive'!
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 07:49 (Ref:2500582)   #3
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compte deGraves should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridcompte deGraves should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
For me the driving standards that you see in BTCC exemplify the type of driving that I do not consider appropriate in historic racing.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 07:56 (Ref:2500587)   #4
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Terry you are a very naughty boy!

I'm travelling at the moment so will comment on my races later, safe to say that Tim Bryan who diced with me in an amazing fight for 10 laps or so (until I finally got past) was like me surprised when I was called to the CoC. In fact I was asked to be a little less "forceful" at Abbey and Luffield. I apologised and thanked him and his team for providing such a great event. There was no report from observers so it was just a request because another driver had complained. I know not whom and didn't ask.

On to your point. There is a difference between squeezing someone who you are racing against and doing the same to a car that is patently faster. On a number of occasions I was passing cars on the way to Copse and was squeezed over to the pit wall. I've really only experienced this with the MGCC funnily enough. All it does is compromise both drivers when they arrive at Copse.

Anyway, when I went out to practice yesterday a gentleman in the assembly area told me he enjoyed watching me playing amongst the more nimble MGs on Saturday, so I couldn't have been that bad.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 08:00 (Ref:2500592)   #5
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If people want to see aggressive,forceful racing go and do/watch the moderns.
Historic's should be one up from a high speed procession.The only racing I have watched this year is the first 45 mins of the Snet 3 hrs at Russell.Poor driving ,stupid overtaking and difference between slow and fast cars was terrific,bangs and scrapes.
Made a decision that it was not the place for a proper 904 to play nor would I want my car in that type of race.It's more of of a type of race that is a pot hunters paradise where people if they are not quick enough bend rules and do stupid things.
Gentleman driving is probably a good way to describe it as Rugby is a sport played by gentleman and look what goes on there.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 08:02 (Ref:2500594)   #6
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Absolutely and the BTCC has often been held up as the extreme end of this type of driving although I think that it peaked at its worst a few years back. No-one would expect or tolerate that in historic, or indeed, in some other forms of motor racing. I think that Terry is probably having a go at drivers who misuse the term 'over aggressive' to describe someone who has simply overtaken them in a combative way, simply because they weren't quick enough to hold them off. However, it's a very subjective term.

Edit - my response was to the Compte's post!
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 08:10 (Ref:2500599)   #7
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The only racing I have watched this year is the first 45 mins of the Snet 3 hrs at Russell.Poor driving ,stupid overtaking and difference between slow and fast cars was terrific,bangs and scrapes.
Made a decision that it was not the place for a proper 904 to play nor would I want my car in that type of race.It's more of of a type of race that is a pot hunters paradise where people if they are not quick enough bend rules and do stupid things.
There was certainly some enthusiastic driving and the occasional errors, as you get in most forms of racing, but I'm sorry you feel that way John, because it's one of my favourite events. I'd love to see Ferrari LMs, 904s and early GT40s in this race but I guess if they all take that view, that is unlikely to happen.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 08:14 (Ref:2500601)   #8
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid

Not quite having a go John,merely asking a question. I just find it quite ammusing that there are some drivers who really seem to fail to grasp why they are on a RACE circuit. I totally agree with the Comte's veiw that we do not need/want BTCC style driving,anyone driving in such an often appalling manor should be banned from Historic's! Spectators/and Drivers alike do not want high speed processions,they should be saved for track-days.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 08:27 (Ref:2500611)   #9
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Is that in your humble opinion Terry.Some people want to trundle round in their old cars playing at being race drivers of the past,What's wrong with that?Monterey,one of the foremost Historic Meetings worldwide ,has worked on that basis for years and had the best race cars in their races.Yours seems to be a parocial British view and not for the broad church of the Historic movement or those who want to drive old cars.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 08:27 (Ref:2500612)   #10
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Its interesting that 'over driving' has crept back in to longer races, particularly early on when perhaps thery want a smudge in a glossy rag as leader but end up with red mist and a DNF!

a certain front runner was rear ended at Russel in the 3 hour due to the inability of someone to wait 100 yards to safely negotiate a slower car they where both lapping. . . someone else has retired due to being taken out at Monza I undestand. there are plenty of people Like John who wont risk a genuine car, competitive or otherwise, for fear of getting it un necessarily smashed up.

maybe we're heading for a 2 tier historic world, genuine cars driven by gentlemen and a continuation/replica hard racing panel bashing series for aged hot shoes with soething to prove ?
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 08:48 (Ref:2500620)   #11
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Two extremes, there, Zef; I hope that it doesn't go that way. I can understand both Terry and John's view, and of course you can apply either depending on the class of 'historic' racing we are talking about. However we have a clue in the word 'race' surely? I don't think Terry's issue is with slow drivers/cars poodling around at the back; it's more with those who think that they are racing but get overtaken by genuinely quicker drivers/cars and then complain about over aggressive driving - I actually think that is the only point he is making. We have as we always tend to, broadened the discussion. No-one wants to see 'over aggressive' driving in racing, particularly historics, so all points made here are valid. It's the definition of the term that's relevant and I'm just not sure we're all discussing the same thing! Historic racing is a broad church (witness the success of this forum) as John has said and there is surely opportunity for everyone to select, as John does for his cars, what events he feels that they can safely enter them in. It matters not that I would like to see them out more; it's not my money!
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 08:56 (Ref:2500625)   #12
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I think Terry is really questioning why people complain about standards rather than the standards themselves. As I explained it was possibly prompted by my experience on Saturday.

I was tagged in that race by a midget (ooh er missus), we were racing hard and I turned into Luffield thinking he'd pulled back, unfortunately he hit his front wheel on my b post and I think he retired.

But I had some good close racing and no other issues so I wasn't complaining. Sadly someone did complain and it seemed a tad strange.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 09:26 (Ref:2500646)   #13
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
the problem is actually very simple - race organizers are not tough enough on bad driving standards... they all say that they will ban anyone over driving but outside of Goodwood who actually has?
Where competitors are totally confident that this would occur then the top cars come out - that is why Goodwood attracts cars of the same calibre as the US racing scene. I totally understand that - if I had an important historic race car I would be seriously hacked off if some aggressive driver punted me off..
Terry we are not always fortunate enough to be in the front running cars - my Turner is one of the slowest cars and therefore I get overtaken by everyone it seems!! There are those who do it sensibly and there are those who seem to get an ego trip from it - you point one side and they over take on the other or they overtake and dive straight in front of you and brake. Its completely unneccessary and if that puts me in the high speed demonstration category then show me where to sign up ;o)
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 09:28 (Ref:2500647)   #14
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Not an unusual occurrence Peter, when you have large(high) and small (low)cars together. I remember a similar situation which actually led to 'tap' between two Ten-Tenthers a couple of years back which produced a slight difference of opinion!
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 10:05 (Ref:2500682)   #15
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
John,that is exactly my point.If people just want to drive around trying to look the part,there must be plenty of other pursuits they could follow.
Peter,spot on! It is strange how most complaints seem to emerge from events such as MGCC etc etc.Thats not to say that ALL of those drivers are the same,some are very quick indeed!.
Simon,I am not for one moment "having a go" at slower cars or their drivers,there are many so called slower cars that we both know are driven on their respective limits,that comes about because of the owners choice and also add's variety to the grids.That being the case,it is entirely down to the guy in the quicker car to be just a little more patient and make allowances,it is possible to spot those who are "trying" and those who are only out for a drive.It's very rare for some-one in a "slower" car to accuse a faster cars driver of being overly aggresive.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 10:53 (Ref:2500709)   #16
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Why should they pursue other hobbies?It is acceptable, or should be, for people to drive at any pace they feel fit as long as they are safe.It is nonsence to say unless the people don't charge round as fast as they can (or faster than they ought)they should not join in Historic Racing.The Historic racing scene should cater for all types of drivers.Lets face it none of the drivers who post on here are very quick compared with those at the top of pile so why the problem.
Is this another case of wannabes and has beens trying to tell the less superior drivers what they should or should not do.Condescending twaddle!
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 11:45 (Ref:2500734)   #17
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Oh well,thats another reader lost then.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 12:07 (Ref:2500763)   #18
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Terry dont dismiss JR's comments too quickly because it is a valid point made harshly. Given this is all male menopause to quote the MG Club motto "Safety First".

For the most part we are better than your average road user but to say we have any real talenet would be stretching the point somewhat. With a few notable exceptions the negligable amount of seat time we all get each year means we will never improve - we are the racing equivalent of a par 16 golfer who has found a way to play around his slice.

That being the case so long as we are safe we pose no danger to the other weekend warriors. Whether the car you are in is faster or not makes little difference if you are an aggressive driver you are a menace!!!
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 13:20 (Ref:2500833)   #19
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Simon, the MGCC's motto is "Safety FAST" which I think puts a different complexion on the argument.

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Old 13 Jul 2009, 13:25 (Ref:2500837)   #20
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Simon, the MGCC's motto is "Safety FAST" which I think puts a different complexion on the argument.
isn't a fast MG an oxymoron? ;o)
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 13:45 (Ref:2500855)   #21
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
No more than the thought of someone "climaxing" in Coventry.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 13:48 (Ref:2500856)   #22
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Actually it sounds to me that there is broad agreement here. My take is that if one is being bullied towards the edge / out of the way, it's a case of how close do you let the other car get before you blink? As a novice ISTR I was worried if it was a couple of yards, now I'm happy if it's a couple of feet, if I hold my position quite often they back off. The better driver might come down to inches? It also depends on the value of your car of course. Getting back to last weekend I had one instance of a front-running BV8 overtaking me agressively and unnecessarily under yellows (after the incident but before the green flag). And a case of somebody lunging into Abbey all locked up where I had to not turn in as planned to avoid contact. He was mortified and apologised profusely later, after retiring the car with no brakes! But the rest of the weekend was all close but fair.
Changing tack, I was pleased to see that Race Admin now publish the penalties applied to drivers as bulletins along with the results. There were several over the weekend, some with penalty points, and they were named and shamed. Good move.
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 14:14 (Ref:2500867)   #23
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I have said, in the past, some of us (self included) occaisionally, if not always drive like we have a handicap of sorts!

regardless of a 2 or 28 handicap as long as people are vetted for safety we're all allowed to have a go, and rightly so. people moaned about a few particularly slow cars at Spa a few years ago in an allcomers race, they didn't cause any accidents, or fall off or anything . . . . Is it not the responsibility of the faster driver to safely negotiate his/her way past the slower one?

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Terry dont dismiss JR's comments too quickly because it is a valid point made harshly. Given this is all male menopause to quote the MG Club motto "Safety First".

For the most part we are better than your average road user but to say we have any real talenet would be stretching the point somewhat. With a few notable exceptions the negligable amount of seat time we all get each year means we will never improve - we are the racing equivalent of a par 16 golfer who has found a way to play around his slice.

That being the case so long as we are safe we pose no danger to the other weekend warriors. Whether the car you are in is faster or not makes little difference if you are an aggressive driver you are a menace!!!
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 15:55 (Ref:2500904)   #24
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Zef,reference post 15.It NOT a knock at slower drivers or saying that they should not be out there.Just that SOME of those slower drivers seem to think that when they are out there,no-one else has the right to go past them.When you do,they moan that you are driving too aggressively,despite the fact that you have given every consideration to their/cars capability/experience,been patient and let them make their maneuver.Then when its safe to go past,they then make life difficult by not getting out of the way!
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Old 13 Jul 2009, 16:35 (Ref:2500937)   #25
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They must be very,very slow!
I must be missing something here or have I misinterpreted the thrust of the thread.I now have an inability to translate Fen along with my other deficiencies as I thought that slow drivers were being attacked but it now seems its just unsafe ones?
If they are unsafe they should be thrown out irrespective of speed.
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