Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Barn Finds > IRL Indycar Series

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 2 Nov 2003, 14:15 (Ref:770760)   #1
macdaddy
Veteran
 
macdaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Canada
St.Catharines Ontario
Posts: 8,125
macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!
Ethanol

WASHINGTON (AP) - The ethanol industry is trying to popularize the corn-based fuel by getting it into racing cars - specifically those at the Indianapolis 500.

Ethanol's backers want the Indy Racing League to replace the natural gas-made methanol used on the circuit since the 1970s.

"It's like those commercials where the race car driver says, `I use this particular type of oil in my own car.' What does that tell people?" said Sen. Jim Talent, R-Mo. "The key here is advertising and further acceptance of ethanol."

Talent belongs to the Senate Biofuels Caucus, which is dedicated to increasing ethanol use. Lawmakers have written an energy bill that would double ethanol's use in gasoline to 5 billion gallons a year by 2012. The legislation, however, is stalled over how to continue ethanol's current tax breaks.

The caucus wrote Tony George, president of Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the IRL, urging him to consider ethanol. IRL officials are open to the idea - if ethanol makers are willing to pay.

"If we had a fuel sponsor who wanted to be involved in advertising ethanol and wanted to be involved in our series, we would give it serious consideration," said Fred Nation, executive vice president of communications for the Speedway, which owns the league.

The switch for Indy cars would be more a symbolic gesture than a new market. IRL races, including the Indianapolis 500, use fewer than 60,000 gallons of methanol each year. Because of auto racing's popularity, it's just the symbol ethanol producers want.

"It's the great American race, and we're the great American fuel, so it seems like we ought to be able to work something out," said Monte Shaw, a spokesman for the Renewable Fuels Association.

The IRL is in the heart of corn country. Besides Indiana, other top ethanol-producing states are Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, Missouri, Kansas, Wisconsin and Tennessee.

Of course, competing methanol producers oppose switching fuels.

"Methanol has proven to be a highly effective and safe racing fuel, and it also has been very cost effective for the Indy Racing league," said Gregory Dolan, vice president of communications and policy.
macdaddy is offline  
Old 3 Nov 2003, 04:02 (Ref:771181)   #2
marcus
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Australia
Australia
Posts: 12,053
marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!marcus has a real shot at the podium!
well should they or shouldnt they ?

theres been a tonne of debate about Ethanol here in Australia even to the extent know service stations have to state on their pumps how much content is in it.

I dont know enough about it to comment at this stage.
marcus is offline  
__________________
In Loving memory of Peter Brock
I hate it when im driving in a straight line & Seb Vettel runs into me
GO THE MIGHTY HAWKS !!!!
Old 3 Nov 2003, 04:54 (Ref:771203)   #3
gttouring
Veteran
 
gttouring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location:
USB 3.0
Posts: 4,536
gttouring should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
what is the problem with pushing methanol as THE fuel of the future? Indy and Champcars do very well on it.
gttouring is offline  
__________________
SuperTrucks rule- end of story.
Listen to my ramblings! Follow my twitter @davidAET
I am shameless ...
Old 3 Nov 2003, 08:34 (Ref:771295)   #4
macdaddy
Veteran
 
macdaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Canada
St.Catharines Ontario
Posts: 8,125
macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!
gttouring, I'm not the one best-educated to try to answer you, but I might suspect:
1) Dangerously low flashpoint.
2) Less economical (miles-per-gallon, don't know about cost).
3) Invisible flame is quite dangerous to the uneducated.

As far as ethanol (no "m") is concerned, I know that a growing number of Canadian fuel suppliers are blending it into their fuels. And I've never noticed a difference, regardless of the ratio.

Five years ago they built an ethanol plant here in my hometown. (I live in "corn country"). They've expanded it twice already.
macdaddy is offline  
__________________
Don't make a fuss, just get on the bus!
Old 3 Nov 2003, 08:47 (Ref:771301)   #5
macdaddy
Veteran
 
macdaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Canada
St.Catharines Ontario
Posts: 8,125
macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!
Don't know how he fared, but it can be done!

http://www.comalc.com/english/chatha...ar/corncar.htm
macdaddy is offline  
__________________
Don't make a fuss, just get on the bus!
Old 3 Nov 2003, 10:16 (Ref:771345)   #6
climb
Veteran
 
climb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
St Pierre and Miquelon
closer than you thought!
Posts: 4,512
climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
methanol-vs ethanol is a problem not strictly related to racing, indeed, because the ethanol producers want to get it into the motorsport only as a way to promote it in the common market.
IMO it'd be good because it would help solving the huge problem of agriculture crisis.
Certainly it would get the production prices of corn higher, and, maybe, make some state subsidies no more necessary to grant farmers' survival.
As you can notice, nothing to see with racing

Last edited by climb; 3 Nov 2003 at 10:17.
climb is offline  
__________________
You got to learn how to fall, before you learn to fly
P.Simon
Old 19 Nov 2003, 23:00 (Ref:788820)   #7
kingfloopy
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
United States
Iowa, USA
Posts: 662
kingfloopy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I live in Iowa in the U.S. Every gas station here has ethanol blendedc fuel here at the pumps. It's pretty good stuff in street cars and is actually cheaper at the pumps here despite the higher octane rating it has. I know it generally burns hotter than non-ethanol fuel, we don't use it in lawn mower engines because of this. In street cars it also helps reduce water in the gas and resist gas line freeze like gas line antifreeze does. The racing deal would be a pretty good promotion for the ethanol and help boost its use. It also seems to be the "fuel of the future" as far as the government is concerned in the U.S. I'm not the greatest chemist, but I think that ethanol and methanol are very close in compostion so adaptation on the cars would be easy.


J.D.
kingfloopy is offline  
Old 20 Nov 2003, 01:35 (Ref:788935)   #8
rush1
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 576
rush1 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
"If we had a fuel sponsor who wanted to be involved in advertising ethanol and wanted to be involved in our series, we would give it serious consideration"

So if an ethanol producer is willing to pony up more cash than any methanol producer you can look for it to happen. As long as it complies with all safety regulations of course.
rush1 is offline  
Old 20 Nov 2003, 05:02 (Ref:789064)   #9
macdaddy
Veteran
 
macdaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Canada
St.Catharines Ontario
Posts: 8,125
macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!
I'd like to see it happen. Especially in the "real world" and passenger vehicles. Ethanol could significantly reduce our dependance upon OPEC. And the way the world is today, that can only be a good thing.
macdaddy is offline  
__________________
Don't make a fuss, just get on the bus!
Old 20 Nov 2003, 14:48 (Ref:789583)   #10
rush1
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 576
rush1 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by macdaddy
I'd like to see it happen. Especially in the "real world" and passenger vehicles. Ethanol could significantly reduce our dependance upon OPEC. And the way the world is today, that can only be a good thing.
Something we can agree on as well. And if we can agree on something that can only be a good thing
rush1 is offline  
Old 21 Nov 2003, 01:20 (Ref:790150)   #11
Snrub
Veteran
 
Snrub's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Canada
London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4,744
Snrub should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSnrub should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Seeing as E85 appears to be pretty viable and infact works in many common vehicles right now. Why shouldn't they market ethanol?
Snrub is offline  
__________________
No Rotor, No Motor.
Old 21 Nov 2003, 02:46 (Ref:790170)   #12
thebear
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
thebear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
United States
85mi S. of Daytona, 125mi NE of Sebring
Posts: 1,837
thebear should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridthebear should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Because?

Quote:
Originally posted by Snrub
Seeing as E85 appears to be pretty viable and infact works in many common vehicles right now. Why shouldn't they market ethanol?
When it was first proposed (~10 years ago) there was a valid concern about long term durability of fuel system componets (gaskets/hoses). :confused: Obviously the materials engineers have forseen the problems and hopefully worked around them.
thebear is offline  
__________________
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
Old 21 Nov 2003, 03:02 (Ref:790175)   #13
evo
Veteran
 
evo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Canada
Medicine Hat
Posts: 693
evo should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If they want to slow the cars down, this might be a good idea. I'm sure an ethanol powered motor of the same displacement wouldn't make as much power as the current spec.
evo is offline  
__________________
When asked facetiously if he knew he’d ruined a good story line by beating Patrick, Wheldon responded bluntly, “Don’t care one bit.”
Old 21 Nov 2003, 03:43 (Ref:790187)   #14
kingfloopy
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
United States
Iowa, USA
Posts: 662
kingfloopy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
One drawback I can see is that a lot of the ethanol producers (at least around here) are small co-ops owned by farmers. This could create some problems with organizing a central organization to control the marketing of ethanol and advertising in relation to racing. Or it could allow too much control by larger companies possibly reducing benefits to the small companies.

J.D.
kingfloopy is offline  
Old 21 Nov 2003, 12:45 (Ref:790524)   #15
Mackmot
Veteran
 
Mackmot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
United Kingdom
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 2,188
Mackmot should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
They dont need to slow the cars down with the engine. The engine is not powerful enough which is why the teams are running cars with zero downforce. A more powerful engine and some rules on wing angles etc would make the car much safer.
Mackmot is offline  
__________________
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Old 21 Nov 2003, 17:54 (Ref:790874)   #16
Bob Riebe
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Minnesota
Posts: 2,351
Bob Riebe User has been fined for unsportsmanlike behaviour!
In the nineties, several cars ran ethanol, it was part of a push to get ethanol better recongnization.
Gordon Johncock, whose lively hood was farming, besides racing, came and ran several years just for that reason.
I do not know how he did, but there is little to zero power difference.
One advantage to ethanol is its less corrosive nature.
Bob
Bob Riebe is offline  
Old 21 Nov 2003, 21:43 (Ref:791062)   #17
dirtfan
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location:
SoCal
Posts: 169
dirtfan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I've been looking on the internet to try and find something about the difference between the two alcohols, but it seems everybody has an axe to grind, and impartial information is almost impossible to find. The first two chapters of this
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...manual1-2.html
give some info.
Also, most methanol is made from methane (natural gas, although cow farts would probably work too), and ethanol is made from stuff that's normally used to feed pigs and people.
Hitler caused a famine in Germany when he used the potato crop to make V2 fuel. If all the surplus corn were used to make fuel, what would happen if there were a bad crop year, would we drive or eat?
Ethanol has a stochiometric ratio of 9:1 as opposed to methanol's 6.5:1, so the mileage would be better, but the total heat of vaporization is only about half, so the fuel/air charge cooling would be less. I think this is why it's usually stated that ethanol has only about 85% of methanol's power.
It's been about 50 years since I last flunked organic chem, so if somebody has a better take on this, please feel free to join in.
dirtfan is offline  
Old 22 Nov 2003, 02:36 (Ref:791185)   #18
macdaddy
Veteran
 
macdaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Canada
St.Catharines Ontario
Posts: 8,125
macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!
Bob... In what series did several cars run ethanol in the 90's? I certainly don't remember anything but methanol being used in CART/IRL during that time period.
macdaddy is offline  
__________________
Don't make a fuss, just get on the bus!
Old 22 Nov 2003, 05:55 (Ref:791224)   #19
Bob Riebe
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Minnesota
Posts: 2,351
Bob Riebe User has been fined for unsportsmanlike behaviour!
Quote:
Originally posted by macdaddy
Bob... In what series did several cars run ethanol in the 90's? I certainly don't remember anything but methanol being used in CART/IRL during that time period.
It probably was at Indy only, though I would not say that they did not try some other races.
There were articles in some farm magazines back then that explained what they wanted to do.
It probably was the early nineties as it was before Indy and CART separated.
Bob Riebe is offline  
Old 23 Nov 2003, 06:45 (Ref:791905)   #20
Edgar Jessop
Rookie
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location:
Rus in urbe
Posts: 61
Edgar Jessop should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Well er, "corn-based ethanol producers" created NASCAR didn't they?
Edgar Jessop is offline  
Old 23 Nov 2003, 18:59 (Ref:792318)   #21
dirtfan
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location:
SoCal
Posts: 169
dirtfan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Actually, Jack Daniels Cup sounds better than Nextel Cup, doesn't it?
dirtfan is offline  
Old 23 Nov 2003, 20:08 (Ref:792343)   #22
edu
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Brazil
São Paulo - BR
Posts: 46
edu should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ethanol is alcool ethylic, the same of beer

The flames are visible.

Cars moved with ethanol had benn 80% of the brazilian market in 80's.
edu is offline  
Old 23 Nov 2003, 20:25 (Ref:792356)   #23
macdaddy
Veteran
 
macdaddy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Canada
St.Catharines Ontario
Posts: 8,125
macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!macdaddy has a real shot at the podium!
Don't go telling people that it's the same as beer!
The membership will start to mysteriously decline!
macdaddy is offline  
__________________
Don't make a fuss, just get on the bus!
 


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Incident handling for Bio-Ethanol cars? Alan Green Marshals Forum 25 11 Feb 2009 09:52
running Chevrolet and Ford 6 litre V8s on bio-ethanol? DanJR1 Racing Technology 1 23 Oct 2004 18:50


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:20.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.