MSA ruling - Hans or similar to be mandatory in 2016

[FISCracer]

Originally Posted by Terminator

Dont you mean V8 MK1 Vixen the real Griffith Owners may take exception to you calling it a Griffith
T

Give the bloke a chance. It's probably a lot more original than most of the FIA Griffiths :-)

First ever race this weekend and I for one wish him the very best

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

Give the bloke a chance. It's probably a lot more original than most of the FIA Griffiths :-)

First ever race this weekend and I for one wish him the very best

Thankyou my friend.

Nerves getting a bit real now!!
N.

[Terminator]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

Give the bloke a chance. It's probably a lot more original than most of the FIA Griffiths :-)

First ever race this weekend and I for one wish him the very best

I guess he will have great fun Richard but i did not think there was a class for V8 Vixens/ Replicas but will be interesting to see how it goes
T

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Woolley I *can't* wear an FHR in the MG because I don't wear a full harness which was why I excluded the cost from my calculations. FHR isn't mandatory in road going classes.

No worries. I'm not arguing for or against it being mandatory, I'm just saying that on the basis of my experience, I wouldn't consider racing without some sort of device. HANS with full harness, some other type if possible without.

Actually, on the basis of the incidents I've attended, the most useful safety wear are in the following order:

Helmet (full face)
FHR
Gloves
Knee pads
Something to protect your manly bits from the seat belts
Other than that, you could probably be naked and be highly unlikely to ever suffer an injury as a result. Most of the things I've seen that hurt are covered by the above.

By the way, after the accident I witnessed at the weekend there is a case to be made for marshals to wear safety helmets. How would you guys feel about that?

It crops up for discussion from time to time. On the whole the general feeling is that the increased risk from wearing them (heat/hearing impairment/balance/other stuff) generally outweighs the benefits (being hit by something). As with all safety equipment, there's a balance to be considered, and most of the time it comes down in favour.

[midgetman]

That's a really interesting list. Mind if I "borrow" it?

[racepar]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

Give the bloke a chance. It's probably a lot more original than most of the FIA Griffiths :-)

First ever race this weekend and I for one wish him the very best

Good luck Neil and have fun see you at Donington.

Pete

[midgetman]

Heightswitch on the bright side your overalls should be OK! The rules haven't changed AFAIK

[Colin McKay]

I would think that a ski or rock climbing type helmet would be a good compromise for marshals - cheap, light & offering a degree of protection in all but the most serious incidents.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by racepar

Good luck Neil and have fun see you at Donington.

Pete

Definitely Pete.
Catch up soon.
N

[Terminator]

Originally Posted by racepar

Good luck Neil and have fun see you at Donington.

Pete

Yes we will be there with our fingers crossed
T

[DaveGT6]

Good luck Neil. Just enjoy yourself and focus on finishing, never mind where you are placed - get the first one in the bag. It will give you a great sense of achievement.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by midgetman

That's a really interesting list. Mind if I "borrow" it?

Help yourself. Just as long as you don't expect a scrutineer to agree with it!

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

I would think that a ski or rock climbing type helmet would be a good compromise for marshals - cheap, light & offering a degree of protection in all but the most serious incidents.

The obvious ones are those made for rescue crew (look up 'Holmatro extrication challenge' on YouTube).

The more difficult decision for marshals is 'what are you protecting yourself from?' Basically a fall where you hit your head on something solid (very rare) or being hit by flying debris (less rare, but still uncommon). Against that you're compromising vision and hearing which you do require and which may prevent you from being involved in the incident in the first place - plus the need for effective communication with your team. Plus on a hot day, if you're standing around in full gear and with a helmet the chances of heat exhaustion increase hugely. Mind, if it's raining it might be beneficial!

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

Good luck Neil. Just enjoy yourself and focus on finishing, never mind where you are placed - get the first one in the bag. It will give you a great sense of achievement.

Thanks Dave. see you and Jon soon at Donny hopefully.
Will update after the weekend.

N.

[midgetman]

Ok so it's happening. Evo Magazine are running sprints by another name at Bedford Autodrome. www.facebook.com/racewear.co.uk

[Derwent Motorsp]

Practical Performance Car do the same at Curborough with someone called m Motor Punk. Something like bring a helmet, pay £60 and you get up to 20 runs of 3 laps each.
Interesting that Bedford is being used as that is part of MSV but has never had competitive events there, so presumably JP is supportive. Could it open the door to MSVR running outwith the MSA sometime?
The format sounds like Time Attack which does have more spectator appeal that our standard sprints.

[FastDB2s]

Interesting discussion, I have competed in sprints & hillclimbs on & off since 1980, races on & off since 85, never had a licence last year, first time in 35years.
I need a licence, helmet, overalls, underwear if that is dated, gloves, possibly boots, seat, seat belts, in a year or so a Hans or similar + rebuilding the DB2.

I was hoping to finish rebuilding the Europa for speed events & occasional races but there is no way you can get in the car with your helmet on so Hans or similar is out of the question, btw it runs on slicks for speed events.

Like a lot of people I'm now having second thoughts, I just bought a good racing bike for about what that lot would cost me (without the rebuild of the car of course), I cycle every weekend & sometimes in the week, it looks like I will be cycling in 'sportive's', (bit like marathons for cyclists) throughout the summer instead
.
I could always compete in hillclimbs in Eire as I doubt that they will introduce Hans for that but you never know.

[bauble]

I am sure that no organisation has a monopoly on running 'motor races', and if a number of people wanted to hold a race meeting under their own rules, and were not bothered about MSA approval, surely there is no law against it?

From the sound of things here a fairly sizable field could be found, and flame proof undies/hans devices etc could be voluntary.
No doubt taking part would mean never being able to compete in 'approved' events again, but that might not be a great loss.

I wonder if any circuit would allow such meetings if it was merely hiring out the facilities?

I for one would be delighted to come and pay to spectate if I could see actual people in the cars and not comic book superheroes or Star Wars Troopers.


Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........

"I have a dream."

[morninggents]

I think the MSA would 'pull' the licence from any circuit involved in non-MSA race meetings.

[Derwent Motorsp]

The MSA can't do anything like that or take any action on anyone who takes part in non MSA events as that would be "restriction of trade". There is a lot of motorsport that takes place outside of the MSA now all perfectly legally. grasss track racing (autograss) run by NASA is hugely popular with events getting hundreds of entries. Costs are kept down and events are run on a not for profit basis.

[Derwent Motorsp]

The International Organisation of Professional Drivers web site is very interesting: http://www.iopd.org.uk/?q=ehos%E2%80%99-guide
Here is a quote:



In 1992, 27 organising groups applied to the Secretary of State and under Statutory Instrument No 1370 eleven were made ‘Authorising’ or ‘Governing Bodies’, able to inspect, approve and sanction off-highway venues and issue Authorising Permits exempting all involved from prosecution for the most serious motoring offences.
These eleven organisations or Authorising Governing Bodies are today still the only official organisations that can by law issue permits of Authorisation. In addition to The International Organisation of Professional Drivers, they are:
-The Royal Automobile Club (now the Motor Sports Association or MSA)
-The Amateur Motor Cycle Association Ltd
-The Association of Land Rover Clubs Ltd
-The Auto Cycle Union Ltd
-The British Schoolboy Motorcycle Association
-The National Autograss Sport Association Ltd
-NORA 92 Ltd
-National Traction Engine Trust
-The Youth Motorcycle Sports Association (YMSA) Ltd
-The Scottish Auto Cycle Union Ltd


Many events outside of the MSA use the IOPD for authorisation and insurance. "Straightliners" who run drag events at various venues, track day organisers plus most of the "demonstration" events that are now very popular.


If you take karting, most kart tracks run "arrive and drive" races and these are outwith the MSA and it may well be that some kart clubs are considering running race meetings outwith the MSA

[bauble]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I think the MSA would 'pull' the licence from any circuit involved in non-MSA race meetings.

If circuits could make more money outside the MSA I am sure they be more than happy, however, imagine Silverstone being 'pulled' from the MSA approved list!
Where would the Grand Prix be held? The Circuit of Wales?

The governance of the UK is in the hands a private company called 'The Conservative Party', they bid for the franchise and beat of competition from a number of rivals bidders, they now make the rules by which we live.

So if you voted for the MSA to run motor sport you must accept their dictats, if you did not who did?
Surely they must have a democratic mandate to force competitors to abide by any arbitrary rule they care to enact?

While drivers should be free to adopt any sensible safety measure they want to, compulsion on all but the basic standards of 'common interest' should be banned.

Question; Does the MSA run the sport for the benefit of the members or for their own benefit?

Bauble Prospective Candidate for the 'Freedom For Tooting' Party.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by bauble

I am sure that no organisation has a monopoly on running 'motor races', and if a number of people wanted to hold a race meeting under their own rules, and were not bothered about MSA approval, surely there is no law against it?

From the sound of things here a fairly sizable field could be found, and flame proof undies/hans devices etc could be voluntary.
No doubt taking part would mean never being able to compete in 'approved' events again, but that might not be a great loss.

I wonder if any circuit would allow such meetings if it was merely hiring out the facilities?

I for one would be delighted to come and pay to spectate if I could see actual people in the cars and not comic book superheroes or Star Wars Troopers.


Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........

"I have a dream."

They do allow...its called track days...but you should not race at them or time them

There is a law against it, mainly due to the likes of Lakeside Shopping Centre carpark in the early 90's. quite complex but to do with insurance, because you are insured when governed by the MSA via a permit...if you did it without that, you would either have to get someone to insure it (good luck with that on an ungoverned event...because I doubt if any insurance company would touch it and even if you did manage to get someone to insure it....think about the cost of that, if you think the cost is high because of HANS and red tape I should imagine that would make the Hans device appear like a bargain) If you went down the route of individual insurance, each would have to have public liability, if you were running it at a proper circuit they would want additional insurance to cover any eventuallity (you have to get additional cover for a parade lap by car clubs if it is "Off Permit") unless you were not holding it open to the public...in which case..you'll need a security firm to keep em out...so add that to the bill.

If you don't get it insured then you would be driving (some would argue recklessly) without insurance (check your cover note but it will I'm sure clearly state that you are not insured to participate in motorsport events and states racing is not covered) and nowadays its no good saying you are on private land..thanks to aforementioned Lakeside Essex Boy Racers. you would be, breaking the law. (if they bring in the EC rules anyone with a race car will need additional insurance anyway thanks to the tractor incident!)

Just to confirm, they are, in respect of Motorsport, not just an organisation, they are the governing body and I totally agree that some aspects of our sport need to change, the reliance on paperwork in this day and age is a joke, systems can be updated, processes should be reviewed and improved, drive down costs by utilising technology that is easily available and, in particular to regulation the "we've always done it that way" mentality offends me in truth ...I hate it "ham mentality" but equally, I don't think changing it so that people begin to get hurt or even die again in motorsport as they did in volume in the earlier years as a step in the right direction. You could consider trying to create an "Alternative Regulator" like in certain other countries but then isn't that just a case of "Animal Farm" ..be careful what you wish for.

Also, in regards to the sound of things on here, I don't want to sound cynical, but I'd advise against judging the size of a potential field of entrants based on the entry of text to an internet chat forum.

ta
C

[Derwent Motorsp]

Just to follow on from the two previous posts. The MSA is in no way democractic. All the people on the committees are "appointed" by a mysterious appointments panel to ensure no one outwith the establishment gets on. The Chair of the Motor Sport Council is Alan Gow, owner of TOCA who the MSA have just appointed to run the BTCC for another 5 years. Does he know anything about club motorsport?
Under the law of the land any of the elven bodies listed can authorise motorsport on private land. The MSA is just one body. I understand that IOPD use the same insurers at the MSA.
As fart as events on the highway (rallies etc) then the MSA holds a contract to process applications for routes granted by the MoT. They process route for all events from any body, not just MSA clubs.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

........The Chair of the Motor Sport Council is Alan Gow, owner of TOCA who the MSA have just appointed to run the BTCC for another 5 years. ........

Yes...like giving Jose Mourinho The chair of the FA....agreed not ideal!!!

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

Under the law of the land any of the elven bodies listed can authorise motorsport on private land....

But isn't that dependant on the actual body? I think you will find it is. Hence we have had to have other governing bodies Clerks present when we have run Motorcycle racing at an MSA event.

[midgetman]

Claire, you are absolutely....wrong! See Derwent's note about the IoPD. The authorised bodies are there to exempt you from the restrictions of the Road Traffic Act, nothing to do with insurance at all. I know a lot about this from my days running kart centres and skid pans.

They are appointed by law to authorise motorised competitions so that drivers are not prosecuted for "dangerous driving", or not having an MoT or working lights or whatever. Interestingly, it has also been interpreted by a senior (expensive) barrister engaged by, IIRC, ARDS and AMRCO, that the Road Traffic Act only applies to motor vehicles. Sports racers, karts or single seaters are not designed for the road and are not motor vehicles under the RTA so you can hoon around all you like in them in Sainsbury's!

Many kart meetings are now run outside of the MSA and are perfectly insured. Not just A&D but owner/driver stuff too. Hot rod racing, deliberate contact motor sport like banger racing, they all run with insurance and there is far more potential for injury than most speed events or circuit racing. You don't need your own 3rd Party Liability for that. Barrel Sprints, time Attack, they are all insured and run outside the MSA.

Do you really think that Palmersport would allow, and Dennis Publishing promote, a timed event if it were illegal or uninsured? No, nor do I.

So there are cracks in the MSA's facade. The MSA is going to have to up its game if it's going to be a force in the middle years of this century.

These days if you don't have pretensions to be an elite performer the MSA is somewhat out of touch with you. All you want to do is go out there and enjoy yourself in your cars with appropriate guidance to make yourself as safe as possible proportional to the risk. The unfortunate effect of the MSA's regulations are that getting started in motor sport costs a King's Ransom. Yet it's not compulsory to wear the same safety equipment in sports which I'm not even daft enough to try (grass/ovals/bangers/moto-X). Go figure.