FF1600 was great for club drivers, but then...

MarkG · 12 Dec 2009, 12:20 (Ref:2598447)

Been reading with interest the thread about a new Champion of Brands series and it made me think about when, in my view, FF1600 changed for the general club driver. That was when the guys with money used Zetec chassis with the Kent engine. To my mind, your average clubbie was then wasting his time if he wanted to compete at the front, especially if you add the fact his engine was probably uncompetitive. I also didn't like Formula Ford cars suddenly being so wide. I also stopped going to the Festival when Zetec was introduced.

It won't happen I know, but if Formula Ford 1600 was restricted to cars BEFORE the Zetec chassis, more guys would come out to play. When was the last "proper" Kent chassis? 1992?? Well, I wish all FF1600 cars after that were not involved in FF1600.

sammyc · 12 Dec 2009, 16:23 (Ref:2598539)

I think you need to take a look and the formula ford results. You will be surprized to see that the old kent cars are still well able to compete against the newer cars. Both have their strengths and weaknesses. Rory Butcher was well able to compete this year in a 92 car including wining the festival. Yes you do need a strong engine but you wont win in any class from karting up without a strong engine.

MarkG · 12 Dec 2009, 16:58 (Ref:2598554)

maybe I wasn't clear enough. Your normal clubbie, good as he might be, didn't go and build a special kent FF from a Zetec chassis. He bought the year-old or 2-year old chassis and had fun. Regardless of that though, am just saying that my preferred FF car was pre-Zetec chassis. The track of a Zetec FF1600 is too much in my view. Yes, you will see good drivers compete in a good chassis like a VD92. Bet that same driver would be quicker in a wide-track car though.

JohnMiller · 12 Dec 2009, 19:32 (Ref:2598619)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkG

maybe I wasn't clear enough. Your normal clubbie, good as he might be, didn't go and build a special kent FF from a Zetec chassis. He bought the year-old or 2-year old chassis and had fun. Regardless of that though, am just saying that my preferred FF car was pre-Zetec chassis. The track of a Zetec FF1600 is too much in my view. Yes, you will see good drivers compete in a good chassis like a VD92. Bet that same driver would be quicker in a wide-track car though.

Don't think so as the width regs haven't changed in many a year. You can make any FF1600 and track you want within the regs.

RF90/91s and decent Reynards cost just as much as a conversion, and always have done as far as I remember.

SAMD · 13 Dec 2009, 15:43 (Ref:2598944)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkG

maybe I wasn't clear enough. Your normal clubbie, good as he might be, didn't go and build a special kent FF from a Zetec chassis. He bought the year-old or 2-year old chassis and had fun. Regardless of that though, am just saying that my preferred FF car was pre-Zetec chassis. The track of a Zetec FF1600 is too much in my view. Yes, you will see good drivers compete in a good chassis like a VD92. Bet that same driver would be quicker in a wide-track car though.

Rory Butcher runs his '92 car because it is as quick as anything out there. If he thought any of the newer cars were quicker he would have been driving one.
Apparently the biggest difference is, the newer cars are easier to drive.

milesinfront · 14 Dec 2009, 02:15 (Ref:2599189)

....but that's racing! Isn't it!

If it was easy to win, no one would finish last...

I drive an old kent car, and I know I don't have a chance of winning the race, but there's always a car in front, and that car must be passed. Sometimes I can pass them, sometimes I cant. The fun for me, is trying!

Not a personal attack, but I genuinely feel sorry for those who's only enjoyment is winning. I do know people who wont even start a race if they don't think they have a chance of winning...

MarkG · 14 Dec 2009, 09:29 (Ref:2599318)

Nice of you, but no need to feel sorry

My only desire when I race is to have a "competitive" car, say one capable of top 6. If I then can't run in the top 6 I know it's me. I played a lot of squash and when I lost, I lost to a better player, it wasn't equipment, and when I won, I didn't have better equipment. Car racing is dependant on equipment and all I wish for for is comparable equipment. I don't have a lot of racing experience actually, but when I had even less, I didn't realise how good or bad my car was (although I had a gut feeling), and it wasn't until I tried another car that I realised I was onto a hiding for nothing. Racing is expensive, and I am certainly not going to waste money if I know my car is a midfield car (which generally means a midfield engine I suppose). I've moved to Classic FF2000 where engines are pretty even I would guess and cars are fairly comparable too. Costs have made a difference too of course, it is a very good class in terms of bang for your buck. I think my car will be competitive, If I'm not, I'll have to try harder, least I'll know it's me that needs fixing.

milesinfront · 14 Dec 2009, 10:24 (Ref:2599336)

hehehe, I guess on the flip side the guys I feel sorry for probably feel sorry for me... All that amazing natural talent without a hope of finishing near the front!

GlenF · 14 Dec 2009, 22:20 (Ref:2599747)

Another reason to go for a newer chassis is that they are wider and more accomodating for the larger figure!.
I have found as I am getting older my 92 Swift seems to be shrinking around the hip area!

flatbroke · 15 Dec 2009, 09:45 (Ref:2600010)

I also do not like the 93 onwards cars but you have to move forward in life. There are championships that have a class structure so if you have a 88 car you can race in pre 90.

people also forget with out the teams/drivers with the newer cars there would be a lot less people racing at the min, we should all be thankfull there is strong championships and races for FF1600 still.

Mr.Jingles · 15 Dec 2009, 13:00 (Ref:2600105)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlenF

Another reason to go for a newer chassis is that they are wider and more accomodating for the larger figure!.
I have found as I am getting older my 92 Swift seems to be shrinking around the hip area!

I was always told the opposite (newer cars = not fot fat gits like moi)?

JohnMiller · 15 Dec 2009, 13:06 (Ref:2600115)

Newer VDs are very spacious, Mygales not so much.

driftwood · 15 Dec 2009, 13:11 (Ref:2600116)

GlennF yr right later cars are more accomodating than older cars for lardy chaps
When i was mid 20`s i raced reynard 89ff and VD92 car for 3 races each
i may fit the cars today but more room in my widetrack 2k car
i will agree the wide track is a pain as the car will only fit in my 7 ft wide 2o ft long covered trailer and tow with teh van & not onto my BJ tilt bed and tow behind my estate

Im afraid the 89 reynard and VD90-92 cars are not cheap cars so it becomes personal choice what car you buy for your 9-15k
Yes you can buy 85 6 7 8 cars for sub 7k but people will always try and buy the latest car money can buy

Motor racing has for ever been unfair in terms of money talent and equipement
seen many talentles drivers with ££ in top spec cars and many "wunde"r kids in buckets of crepe and no pot to urinate in
Im afraid your FF200 series is no diferent
yes some guys wanna win and others just want to race the next guy and some i know are making up numbers and know their limits and drive as fast as they feel happy doing
rather have a grid of 25 cars with all sorts than a grid of 10 who must win

we are all entitled to our views well done for posting your views we need a bone to chew on for 3 days until the next contenctious post comes along

MarkG · 15 Dec 2009, 15:34 (Ref:2600191)

Always interesting to see a "driftwood" post

I don't know who you are but you obviously know your stuff, whereas I don't really and just think out loud

But contentious?? I didn't intend that to be honest, but heck, contentious is good sometimes eh?

driftwood · 15 Dec 2009, 16:20 (Ref:2600204)

i like contencious gets people talking or shouting at the PC !

Hopes87 · 16 Dec 2009, 18:49 (Ref:2600913)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlenF

Another reason to go for a newer chassis is that they are wider and more accomodating for the larger figure!.
I have found as I am getting older my 92 Swift seems to be shrinking around the hip area!

I find that your swift 92 is maybe a little too roomy for me!

GlenF · 28 Dec 2009, 19:17 (Ref:2605761)

I'm dieting down for the new year so I can choose between my 92 or 04.
Just need to finish off the 3 cases of beer / chocolates and cakes. (Should be ok for WHT)

driftwood · 28 Dec 2009, 23:00 (Ref:2605815)

save yerseilf the bother donate them to the local YMCA it wil make you feel better and save you 6 weeks of intensive training

GlenF · 29 Dec 2009, 15:08 (Ref:2605995)

Not as much fun though!

driftwood · 29 Dec 2009, 20:33 (Ref:2606146)

what the exercise or the beers n cake?

50-SIX · 7 Jan 2010, 21:52 (Ref:2609737)

If you are fast enough to win, you can do it in a RF90 or a DP09. I've raced early 90 VD's and won against the newest chassis. The only real advantage I can see is the newer cars are safer and less chance of chassis snapping, and cracking.

On the plus side, the older chassis go off the line far far better than the new VD's.

People use the old kit excuse too much. If you actually had data on everyone's cars, you will find the slower guys are slower not because of the age of their chassis, but simply because they are braking earlier, not carrying as much corner speed or getting on the power later.

The diff between the old and new chassis driven properly is, if anything, literally 1 or 2 tenths. The big variable in FF1600 is engines in my view. Replace the kent with de-tuned duratecs and you will find the field evens up a hell of alot more, and re-build bills reduce dramatically.

Redracer77 · 7 Jan 2010, 22:11 (Ref:2609745)

Quote:

Originally Posted by 50-SIX

If you are fast enough to win, you can do it in a RF90 or a DP09. I've raced early 90 VD's and won against the newest chassis. The only real advantage I can see is the newer cars are safer and less chance of chassis snapping, and cracking.

On the plus side, the older chassis go off the line far far better than the new VD's.

People use the old kit excuse too much. If you actually had data on everyone's cars, you will find the slower guys are slower not because of the age of their chassis, but simply because they are braking earlier, not carrying as much corner speed or getting on the power later.

The diff between the old and new chassis driven properly is, if anything, literally 1 or 2 tenths. The big variable in FF1600 is engines in my view. Replace the kent with de-tuned duratecs and you will find the field evens up a hell of alot more, and re-build bills reduce dramatically.

spot on.

The only real difference in modern and old is the engine in the back plus a slightly different driving style.

I have had a RF90 and a modern Van Diemen and I prefered the new car as it was easier to drive but no quicker

MarkG · 8 Jan 2010, 11:46 (Ref:2609969)

I completely agree with this bit from "50-SIX" :-
The big variable in FF1600 is engines in my view. Replace the kent with de-tuned duratecs and you will find the field evens up a hell of alot more, and re-build bills reduce dramatically.

My original post was related to years ago when Zetec conversions started, but today is today and things have changed. I agree a RF90/92 is now much more competitive, I assume because of cars ageing.
FF1600 is great car racing, but I would only be interested in it with different engines to the Kent.

brakedisc · 10 Jan 2010, 20:42 (Ref:2611207)

"Don't think so as the width regs haven't changed in many a year. You can make any FF1600 and track you want within the regs."

Extrernal sizes did not change but cockpit sizes did with the adoption of a minimum cockpit footwell size. Plywood board was how they tested it. Side pods are also needed post 92? and that also adds to frontal area. Optimum FF1600 car has to be earlier models.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Peterborough Motor Club/brdc - Ff1600 Race	JEB	Club Level Single Seaters	8	9 Apr 2006 12:21
Club ff1600	Redracer77	Club Level Single Seaters	85	5 Feb 2004 00:08
NWFF1600 DRIVERS are better than the SOUTHERN FF1600 DRIVERS	Redracar57	Club Level Single Seaters	50	24 Dec 2003 19:05