Schumacher tips Hamilton as future ace

[Attila]

Daniel,

It is very sad but you are right in general. I am pretty sure we can come up with examples of poor drivers making it (the Schumacher brothers), but unfortunatelly that is not the general practice.
Nowadays in motorsports talent is not enough I would go so far that it is not even the most important. I am glad that you are not bitter because I am. I don't think that it is fair, of course life is not fair. I know many drivers all around the world, and the truth is the rich one make it most of the time.
That is life, but I hope that you will be the exception to the rule and make it big.

Attila Sztanko

P.S.: My name really is Attila :-)), I know it sounds odd, but you know these mad Hungarians :-)).

[danielclarke]

Cheers Atilla, and you're right, Motorsport will always be a rich mans sport, or at least always cost money, unless we were to make changes...

Regards

Daniel Clarke
http://www.DanielRacing.com

[sonic]

Daniel, after reading your posts carefully, I can only draw one conclusion – you have a much larger problem than you actually realise.

Your comments are not about motorsport in particular - they are really just a lament about the state of our capitalist society!

You seem to envision some utopia, where bucket-loads of talented ‘poor’ drivers get to race in cheap and affordable classes that actually progress them into F1. Wake up, this is a tough business. There are 22 very, very expensive slots on the F1 grid and the selection process is necessarily very tough. In this big boy’s world media, finance and commerce play an enormous role – it’s the ultimate capitalists sport – just ask Bernie!

I really think you either need to a) move to China – where apparently all drivers are forced to compete on a shoestring… in Formula Zip! - or b) change sports.

Oh! One question – if you are so good, how come a karting manufacturer never took you under their wing and supplied your equipment for free? (That’s a rhetorical question –I already know the answer!)

[Rennen]

Ouch! Sonic!...I've never heard anyone call F1 "The Ultimate Capitalists Sport" before! So why then is Daniel soooo wound up about those that get a PR hype 'leg up' to do that type of racing? Truth is if he beat Lewis Hamilton in grass roots karting that should have satisfied him! When and if LH makes to F1, Daniel can rightly and proudly say "I used to beat him!" Loads of lads out there used to beat Button in karting (pre; Rocket) That's Life! There's always FPA...ooh that's gone has it?

[Gideon]

Dan,

I'm with you on this one! I've been reading all your posts (right back to the start) and I have to agree with you totally. I'm in the same boat.

I've been racing since 1998 with no kart experience before hand (except for a couple of of indoor races on those rubbish karts that we've all had a go on) and I believem no in fact I know, how far I could have got with even half the budget that some of these guys in Junior Formulae have started with.

My passion to race was just as big as yours and my desire. I had no family backing - my mum and dad were totally against it, believing I was throwing away a good eduaction, but it was my dream. It took me til my 20's to get my licence and after a Uni education too. But once I got it I didn't look back.

I started my first race with a pitiful amount of experience - 2 half days testing, and then five races later and one more test, I got on the podium. I was racing in a club series and against guys who'd started racing not long after I was born! It was all down to my commitment and desire. It'd like to see some of today's so called stars jump into a car and do that!

From the start of 1999 to the end of 2000, I reckon I'd done less milage in a race car than some people have done before they even start racing - I can name a very famous, F3 driver who was on the sidelines for 2 years testing behind closed doors... And I've only racked up about twice as many miles this year as before as I'm racing in a proper series - FPA - which gives you a 1 hour test before each race, which has been invaluable experience to me and made me much, much quicker than I ever was! If I'd started the season with that amount of experience, I know where I'd have finished in the standings! (I came 3rd in the series BTW anyone in case you wanted to know how I got on - with 3 wins which was as many as anyone else.)

And I've another classic example of how rich kids will make it. I went up to the FPA circuit at Bedford the other week to treat my sponsor to a go in my car. He's obsessed with car racing and would love to do it himself. He loves F1 and has loved every race of mine this year - rather than sit back and drink the hospitality winem he gets involved, comes into the garage to see me get in the car, wishes me luck, watches the qualifying on the pit wall with my mechanic and everything because he loves it so much.

So we went to Bedford and out at the same time was a 15 year so-called British Kart super star - with numerous kart championships to his name. He'd already been out in the FPA car several times before, but by the end of the day - 2 hours later , my sponsor who has never raced or anything, listened to my advice on how to drive the car as he was desperate to learn, and set a lap time quicker by several tenths than this so called kart star! Although slower by 2 seconds than what I can manage, I have every belief that with more than 2 hours in the car he's have got much closer to my time.

This is all down to him wanted to race rather than this 15 year old kid with the pressure on from his father standing near him and his big name sponsor too - and he's got a very big name sponsor..

But what is going to happen, my sponsor is going to have had the day of his life driving an FPA, knowing he's good but also accepting that I'm better so he won't have ambitions to go on and race, but the 15 year old is going to do nothing but test the FPA and god knows what ever else for at least 1 year, in secrecy, behind closed doors, taking weeks to take tenths off of his lap time, and then in a years time he'll get a licence and make his public debut and will probably be hailed the next super star as he'll win his first race!

It's total BS and he'll get huge PR and probably make it to F1, but he'll have no respect from me - just like all of today's new F1 stars or stars of the future will also have no respect from me. You won't ever see them remortgaging their house to go racing or selling their car or even every single penny they've ever earned plus more just to race - stuff that the guys of the old days and some of us with an unbelievable amount of desire to race do...

Oh one last thing, I can't believe some of the names that you people have listed in this topic as having "no money"! Ha! You lot will believe any **** someone tells you... People with no money cannot afford to start in Slick 50 or afford to shell out a couple of grand on a manager.

Good luck Dan, I hope to see you up there alongside me one day! If you don't get the ludicrous amount needed for Junior FF, take my advice and pay half that for a season in FPA. As the cars are equal, you'll be able to prove - if only to yourself - just what you're capable of.

[Simon Pullan]

Hang on a minute there Gideon. The key is in what you wrote. The kid is 15! How long has your sponsor been driving cars? Probably about 15 years, so it will take time for the kid to get upto speed. Don't write people off just because they are still learning to drive. To be only 2 seconds off the pace sounds very good to me.

Maybe your sponsor is a naturally good driver and so took to the car well. And the same for you. But some of us have to work at it.

Not a lot of people know this, but when I turned 16, I went to the Jim Russell racing school at Donington in December. I had done next to no driving at all. After two days of the course, Mark Armstrong turned to me and said 'Come back when you can drive'. So I went away and drove my mum's car on the roads around a park near our house for the whole of the winter holidays. And when I went back to the Jim Russell school in the Easter Holidays next March, low and behold, I won the course race. It's learning to drive that is the problem. I'm sure that this karter will be lightning once he can actually drive.

You get my drift?

[Lisa Davidson]

So Simon, why stick a kid of 15 in a racing car if he can't drive!? We're talking about super fast cars here doing 150mph, and a very dangerous sport. So why the hell is a kid driving this thing? He's not ready and shouldn't be driving it. Therefore he should come back when he is ready and sponsors shouldn't be pressuring (neither should parents) these kids into doing something their obviously not capable of doing at such a young age?

Just as this kid isn't ready, neither is Lewis Hamilton and they shouldn't be made to do something they can't handle. They shouldn't be learning to drive in a racing car - god knows what they'd do when they actually hit the roads with us mere mortals out there. Don't people ever realise how dangerous this is!

And anyway I want to see the best drivers in the best cars - not these manufactured drivers. The naturally talented drivers shouldn't have to work at it too much, obviously everyone needs practise, but not countless days on end. If I was a racing driver, I wouldn't want to have to spend ages upon ages driving round just to be on the pace - I'd want to be there already!

People are out there spending too much money on getting these guys race ready, where as you say yourself Simon, there are people out there that can already drive - and already drive pretty damn well. So why waste this money on them, why not put it into drivers like Daniel and Gideon - both with proven track records - and sponsor them a lot less?!

Incidentally Gideon, you said that this kid had been to the circuit before. How far off his pace was he the first time he was out?

[Simon Pullan]

Mostly valid points.

But, if he wants to be a racing driver and has the money, who are we to tell him he can't because he's not a natural driver.

I assure you he won't be a danger on the roads. By the time he is old enough, he will use his periferal vision, enhanced from racing, to avoid any trouble and he will know that the road is not a race track. He will have driving lesson just like the rest of us, maybe just not as many as some people have.

The reason he is driving the quick car is because if he can drive that, he will be able to drive anything. And it's only dangerous for him. There aren't 20 other cars around him and to be honest you are pretty unlucky to hit anything at Bedford. It's very safe.

[Attila]

I have to disagree with Lisa. I am a hobby racer myself, I am probably not the most talented guy on the track, but started gokarting at the age of 5. You just simply learn things, starting that young. I am no Schumacher and never will be, still I take every chance to drive fast cars. As a matter of fact today I am going to test an old GT2 Porsch, and also a Porsch Supercup car. Am I going to be fantastic?? No, probably will be 5 secons off the pace. I have not raced for a year now, for budget reasons. But right now, I can do it and I should do it if it makes me happy.
On the road I have never made an accident, and I consider myself a much much better driver the 95% of the other drivers out there. Racing and driving on the road has nothing to do with each other, a very good safe road driver most likely will be a poor racing driver.
For Gideon and Daniel I wish you guys luck, I hope you will make it.

[superbird]

I've had this argument sooo many times and it doesn't get any less silly.

If it was the first time I'd heard this about a karting driver, I would be laughing, but it isn't and now I'm starting to get annoyed by it. If people want to know who the best karting driver is coming up the ranks, they should put them all in equal karts and see how they get on, rich kids like Lewis Hamilton with their enormous US style motorhomes, (which cost more than the house I live in) Alex Lloyd and the likes of Michael Conway (who can't even heel and toe in FFord I might add) Would be forgotten about.

Lewis Hamilton does not come from a rich background. In fact when he started racing he came from a very poor background. No comment about the other two, never been impressed there.

His head is screwed on that's for sure, I've raced against him in the class I used to be in, which was the cheapest, and for the brief year he was there, racing a against drivers from all different financial levels, and he didn't shine through believe me. I've beaten him in races, and we struggled to fund that class! In fact, there are plenty of drivers in club racing who used to beat your Jenson Button and Justin Wilson in karting. Anyway, then Lewis was put in the expensive classes, with the expensive equipment, and suddenly he starts winning races and then heralded as the next F1 star.

What was that then? Only mediocre year I can remember from Lewis was 1998 and that was JICA, hardly the cheapest class. As far as I'm concerned, Yamaha is the cheapest class, barring Rotax which wasn't around then. I think you'll find Lewis won both championships that year. If you mean TKM, don't talk rubbish, he didn't make any kind of concerted effort on that class and it's certainly not cheap.

it's unfair to be nasty to kids that have a lot of financial support from daddy, because they usually get judged on their talent soon enough.

yep, you're damn right, especially when their financial support doesn't actually come from daddy, but McLaren. And I think we'll all agree that it's much harder to get Ron Dennis to cough up than one's father.

Lewis's family haven't funded him for a long time, it's all been down to sponsors. If he could do it, why couldn't you Daniel?

Just as this kid isn't ready, neither is Lewis Hamilton and they shouldn't be made to do something they can't handle. They shouldn't be learning to drive in a racing car - god knows what they'd do when they actually hit the roads with us mere mortals out there. Don't people ever realise how dangerous this is!

What's your rationale for thinking Lewis isn't ready Lisa? Just curious

Let's have a bit of fact checking

[Russfeld]

Daniel Clarke probably isnt black...

[superbird]

don't start that again, nor is Mark Litchfield, Tonio Liuzzi or many other drivers who have had well sponsored careers and no family dosh

and for the record, no Daniel isn't...

[Russfeld]

Its a fair and valid point. Lewis Hamilton's marketability is as important as his driving ability. I really dont think he'd have the Mclaren deal strictly on behind the wheel prowess

[superbird]

why not? the decision wasn't made by Mercedes, if it was you would have a point. Ron Dennis can't and wouldn't risk his team by choosing his drivers on their ethnicity.

I think it's a bit sad that some people can't see beyond race in this day and age, is it really still that politised in America Ross? It's not really an issue over here, the only bashing Lewis has taken over supposed positive discrimination that I've seen has been from Americans and Antipodeans. Most Brits think someones' race is a non-issue. Even Daniel Clarke, who also obviously has a chip on his shoulder and is verbose with it, hasn't started on that one.

[Russfeld]

Ron Dennis is a businessman. F1 is a business first and a sport second. To think that the marketing opportunities presented by Lewis Hamilton's skin color is not a factor demonstrates a comprehensive lack of understanding of modern racing and business.

[superbird]

Ross, you seem quite intelligent. Why then, do you have a grudge against someone who you have never met, have never seen race, and know nothing about other than what you have heard from others who post on forums (including me, it has to be said). You see the colour of his skin and you automatically think that is the only thing he has going for him. That is truly sad, most of the world has moved on. Try it sometime.

I know you don't know a great deal about karting, but who on earth else on the British scene do you think had achieved as much as Lewis had at the time McLaren signed him? You don't take the risk of signing someone at the age of 12 purely because their ethnicity is a good selling point for a sponsor who you may or may not have in eight years time. Who exactly has a lack of understanding here? What reason do you think Schumacher has for lying in the quote posted? (because that's what you're implying)

I realise you think everything I say is irrelevant because I happen to be a friend of the guy, but try thinking for yourself for a change.

[Lisa Davidson]

I'm afraid the reason Ross said that is because he's absolutely right. It's not a racist comment or anything but a fact of life. How come he's the only karter that my mum has heard of? Because he is a young black racing driver with backing from McLaren and gets a huge amount of publicity from it. It's not down to his talent - I know very little about karting but I'm sure there was a guy just like so many others - called Fraser Sheeder or something and he was beating Lewis all the time! I can't see him in a Renault yet!

As for the Schumacher quote - we don't know the full story he do we. For all we know, someone working for Hamilton asked Schuey for a quote. And if that someone also works for McLaren, add a quick spin on the quote and send it out to every newspaper under the sun and there's another story for him.

So how did he get on today at Rockingham as I saw the top 6 result and no sign of him... That's why I think he's not ready because Formula Renault is a highly sophisticated piece of machinery. He may be able to chuck a Formula Ford around the circuit with no problems but the jump straight to this when he can't even drive a road car! I mean - come on!

And also just because he's backed by McLaren does not mean he will drive for them one day so Ron is not taking a risk in that department. After all, look at Nick Heidfeld and Ricardo Zonta.

I'm not saying that he is a bad driver in any way because he may turn out very good but then I would expect that of ANYONE who has had his backing and not living in the knowledge that if he wrecks it, he has to pay for it. He has had it easy for a long time and so many others haven't. Perhaps when he is racing against a load of other guys that have had it easy too, he will not shine through at all. but I go what I say all along, I don't want to see the people who have it easy all the time get to the top, they should work at it just like everyone else does in every other walk of life - business or sport. This is something the MSA has to sort out now and soon and cap the costs that people spend and also perhaps sort out greedy teams too - after reading the article in Autosport about F3000 teams paying ridiculous wage bills to their mechanics, how long do you think it will take for those sorts of wages to filter down to the lower levels? Not long.

[superbird]

So how did he get on today at Rockingham as I saw the top 6 result and no sign of him... That's why I think he's not ready because Formula Renault is a highly sophisticated piece of machinery. He may be able to chuck a Formula Ford around the circuit with no problems but the jump straight to this when he can't even drive a road car! I mean - come on!

14th yesterday (race ended up being 6 laps with three red flags), 4th in todays race which went the distance. Robert Bell won, don't know anything about any of the others as my mother was the one watching and she is an even bigger Hamilton cheerleader than me! To be honest, 4th isn't ideal because he didn't qualify as well as he would have liked but I don't think it can come under the category of "not ready".

I'm afraid the reason Ross said that is because he's absolutely right. It's not a racist comment or anything but a fact of life. How come he's the only karter that my mum has heard of? Because he is a young black racing driver with backing from McLaren and gets a huge amount of publicity from it. It's not down to his talent - I know very little about karting but I'm sure there was a guy just like so many others - called Fraser Sheeder or something and he was beating Lewis all the time! I can't see him in a Renault yet!

You and Ross should continue to believe that if it makes you feel better. Obviously I know things you don't about the situation that I can't post on the net, so realistically I can't expect you to believe me. Fraser is a great lad and a great driver but he had much better backing than Lewis before McLaren picked him up, and no, he didn't beat him all the time. If you don't know much about karting how on earth can you claim to know who is talented and who isn't?

And also just because he's backed by McLaren does not mean he will drive for them one day so Ron is not taking a risk in that department. After all, look at Nick Heidfeld and Ricardo Zonta.

again, obviously I know things you don't about the situation that I can't post on the net, so realistically I can't expect you to believe me.

I'm not saying that he is a bad driver in any way because he may turn out very good but then I would expect that of ANYONE who has had his backing and not living in the knowledge that if he wrecks it, he has to pay for it. He has had it easy for a long time and so many others haven't. Perhaps when he is racing against a load of other guys that have had it easy too, he will not shine through at all. but I go what I say all along, I don't want to see the people who have it easy all the time get to the top, they should work at it just like everyone else does in every other walk of life - business or sport.

Who do you think he has been racing against for the last three years? I've said this to Ross on another board, but international karting isn't a load of guys racing on a shoestring and then along comes Hamilton with a blank cheque from McLaren. Lewis was 2nd in the Junior European Championship in 1999 and 1st in European Formula A in 2000, all against drivers who have had every advantage. It's generally agreed that this year he has had a dog of a chassis, but even so, he beat drivers who are being paid £60,000 to race. If you would expect the same performance out of anyone who has had the same sort of backing, why haven't all the other drivers with that sort of backing actually delivered? Because I can tell you there are a hell of a lot of rich drivers in karts. I don't like it any more than you do, but that's why I support a driver from a modest background who got off his arse and did something about it rather than spend his time on BBs *****ing about how unfair racing is. And even if you are uninformed enough to think international kart racing and junior formulae single seaters is easy, why on earth do you think that it's easy to keep working at getting sponsorship?

This is something the MSA has to sort out now and soon and cap the costs that people spend and also perhaps sort out greedy teams too - after reading the article in Autosport about F3000 teams paying ridiculous wage bills to their mechanics, how long do you think it will take for those sorts of wages to filter down to the lower levels? Not long.

I would agree with that, but I can't think of a reasonable way of enforcing it. Perhaps imposing the budget caps and then making teams submit audited accounts would work, but it has to be done in conjuction with other countries ASNs or else teams will just clear off to Germany or wherever and it just displaces the problem.

I don't much like a lot of the single-seater teams, I don't like the business model of the non-works teams and I agree that a lot of them are bloody greedy. Probably why I want to work in karting, but then I know more about the industry and I know where the money goes. Wouldn't have a driver funded by his family though if I could help it.

[bella]

lewis drove very well today. i await next weekend with interest.

[Lisa Davidson]

14th is nothing to write home about but 4th is a good result. Ok so he can drive - but after all that testing so he should - but I'll still stick with what I think all along and that is that there are better drivers out there that could deliver better results with his backing. And after all he is in the best team in Renault - although people will say perhaps Motaworld are now but I would disagree because how many times in recent years have Manor won the title? - and I was expecting more. Out of the newcomers, how did he compare? And how did the other Manor car get along because that's the most important thing - beating one's team mate.

i will add though that the reason I write all this about him - and I don't know as much as you Superbird - is because I hear so much about him but everytime i check on his results or see him on TV or somthing, he doesn't win all the time yet he is made out by the press and a lot of other people to be the biggest sensation since Senna. But he isn't and I don't believe he ever will be, so I think he should be accepted as a good driver but not one of the greatest before he has done anything (in cars).

Oh and

why on earth do you think that it's easy to keep working at getting sponsorship?

What do you mean by this? I don't think it's easy at all - in fact it's virtually impossible for any driver in this country to get sponsors. I work for a big company in London and desperately tried to pursuade my boss to back my favourite local driver, as I opened the mail from the driver and showed it to my boss! It was an excellent proposal and I was hoping it would go through but instead 2 days later he asked me to type a letter saying "Sorry but our sponsorship budget for next year has gone" which is total rubbish! Our company wastes hundreds of thousands every year on pointless advertising but he like so many naive bosses of the UK can't realise the full potential of backing some youg talent. And once a driver is lucky enough to get sponsorship, of course I understand how hard it is to keep it. I'm in regular email contact with this driver I've just mentioned and he had a big sponsor for this year and was telling me how much he has spent personally just to make it work - with all merchandise stuff, arranging for the car to be exhibitied at shows, making sure that the sponsors get video tapes of the races on TV - and he does this all himself without a manager or anything. But the sad thing is he has now lost the sponsor because the company lost so much money after the NY incident that they can't afford to sponsor him anymore. Does Lewis himself sit there and do all these sorts of things to please Ron?

[Simon Pullan]

Originally posted by Lisa Davidson
I hear so much about him but everytime i check on his results or see him on TV or somthing, he doesn't win all the time yet he is made out by the press and a lot of other people to be the biggest sensation since Senna. But he isn't and I don't believe he ever will be, so I think he should be accepted as a good driver but not one of the greatest before he has done anything (in cars).

This is the result of having a very good PR team behind him.

Don't hold a grudge against him because he has this opportunity. Not everyone can get equal opportunities so it's useless arguing about it. I say good luck to the lad, he has the best possible opportunity to become a professional racing driver, and if he doesn't he is a mug.

[Marshal]

Originally posted by Simon Pullan


This is the result of having a very good PR team behind him.

Don't hold a grudge against him because he has this opportunity. Not everyone can get equal opportunities so it's useless arguing about it. I say good luck to the lad, he has the best possible opportunity to become a professional racing driver, and if he doesn't he is a mug.

Very well put Simon.

As for this conversation, I can really understand the frustration of those of you who are talented and determined enough to give racing a shot, and find the barriers almost insurmountable (spelling?) but that's the way life is, and that's the way racing has always been, and unless some of you out there are extrordinarily clever, and can think of a way round the need for vast sums of money, it'll never change.

You all must knoiw the old joke....

How do you get a small fortune?

Start with a large fortune and go Motor Racing

Back on topic, I'll reserve judgement on Lewis till I see him race, probably next season.

[pitbit]

I don't think anyone should have a go at LH for makng the most of the opportunity he has been given. The colour of his skin has nothing to do with it, when British talent is given backing all most people do is slag them off. We should be right behind young drivers who may have a chance to break into F1 in a few years time. Lewis went from I think 10th or 11th on the grid at Rockingham to finish 4th, that can't be bad. I hope he does well and with Manor he can't really go wrong.

[Marshal]

Hi Pitbit and welcome to 10-10ths, I hope you enjoy the lively debate here.

And for what its worth I agree with you, its great to see young british drivers geting backing.

[bella]

i checked out lewis' laptimes in warm up on sunday morning, and he was very consistent, around 1.24.5 every time for about 6 laps.

his first race was dodgy (started 14th finished 14th i think), but everyone needs time to get used to a new form of racing. second race was much better.