Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Baltic Touring Car Championship Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Touring Car Racing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 29 Mar 2013, 11:38 (Ref:3226319)   #126
juicy sushi
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
in a pool of wasabi and soy sauce
Posts: 361
juicy sushi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
DTM racing sucks because they're penalized for every little thing they do.

Give them freedom to actually race without as much ridiculous penalties and you'll see a much better race.
I don't think so, they have too much fragile aerodynamic silliness. It makes them too sensitive to the leading car's wake, as in F1. They're even introducing DRS in a desperate bid to fix the issue. I don't think allowing some fender banging is going to help.
juicy sushi is offline  
__________________
have a nice diurnal anomaly...
Quote
Old 29 Mar 2013, 11:41 (Ref:3226320)   #127
juicy sushi
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
in a pool of wasabi and soy sauce
Posts: 361
juicy sushi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter185 View Post
You bring up needing an IndyCar budget, and I've been thinking that maybe nascar is bringing dtm to the US to compete with Indy. Thoughts? Is my tinfoil hat on too tight??
I think IndyCar can run itself into the ground quite successfully without the help of the France family.
juicy sushi is offline  
__________________
have a nice diurnal anomaly...
Quote
Old 29 Mar 2013, 11:56 (Ref:3226326)   #128
Thaw Daggerslash
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 494
Thaw Daggerslash should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt View Post
Give them freedom to actually race without as much ridiculous penalties and you'll see a much better race.
Kinda like they do in NASCAR right up until the moment someone hits the wall and breaks their back, you mean?
Thaw Daggerslash is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Mar 2013, 12:04 (Ref:3226329)   #129
FordCosworthPanoz
Veteran
 
FordCosworthPanoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Bermuda
Flatts Village
Posts: 4,016
FordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Why the heck does NASCAR need a DTM-style series to 'compete' with Indy? Why should they even care. Half empty grandstands at St. Petersburg with 16,000 seats and the usual ratings on NBCSN. With the crazy racing at the end of last week's race they're water cooler talk for at least another weekend. Indy meanwhile will be forum talk, that's about it...

Amazing that people are shocked motor racing is a dangerous sport. the last 20-30 laps of that race on Sunday were better than anything I've seen in the DTM since perhaps 2002. Americans will be wondering why the heck cars are randomly driving down the pit lane every ten laps if they keep up their current penalty system in the US version of DTM: No major contact unless you drive a Mercedes.

Last edited by FordCosworthPanoz; 29 Mar 2013 at 12:09.
FordCosworthPanoz is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Mar 2013, 18:25 (Ref:3226519)   #130
Scooter185
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
United States
Connecticut
Posts: 364
Scooter185 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz View Post
Why the heck does NASCAR need a DTM-style series to 'compete' with Indy? Why should they even care. Half empty grandstands at St. Petersburg with 16,000 seats and the usual ratings on NBCSN. With the crazy racing at the end of last week's race they're water cooler talk for at least another weekend. Indy meanwhile will be forum talk, that's about it...

Amazing that people are shocked motor racing is a dangerous sport. the last 20-30 laps of that race on Sunday were better than anything I've seen in the DTM since perhaps 2002. Americans will be wondering why the heck cars are randomly driving down the pit lane every ten laps if they keep up their current penalty system in the US version of DTM: No major contact unless you drive a Mercedes.
I don't think it's needed to compete with IndyCar, but it's the only other series that it makes sense to compete with. I also didnt mean only competing for fans but also teams/drivers, sponsors, and Hondas $$$.

Otherwise dtm would be competing and possibly taking those things away from the new USCR which doesn't make much sense.
Scooter185 is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Mar 2013, 18:33 (Ref:3226524)   #131
FordCosworthPanoz
Veteran
 
FordCosworthPanoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Bermuda
Flatts Village
Posts: 4,016
FordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridFordCosworthPanoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I see what you mean.
FordCosworthPanoz is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Mar 2013, 21:33 (Ref:3226614)   #132
Matt
Veteran
 
Matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
United States
Connecticut
Posts: 7,175
Matt is going for a new lap record!Matt is going for a new lap record!Matt is going for a new lap record!Matt is going for a new lap record!Matt is going for a new lap record!Matt is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaw Daggerslash View Post
Kinda like they do in NASCAR right up until the moment someone hits the wall and breaks their back, you mean?
No penalties resulted from that, so I dunno what you mean by it.
Matt is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Mar 2013, 13:09 (Ref:3226857)   #133
juicy sushi
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
in a pool of wasabi and soy sauce
Posts: 361
juicy sushi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter185 View Post
I don't think it's needed to compete with IndyCar, but it's the only other series that it makes sense to compete with. I also didnt mean only competing for fans but also teams/drivers, sponsors, and Hondas $$$.

Otherwise dtm would be competing and possibly taking those things away from the new USCR which doesn't make much sense.
But a North American DTM emphatically WOULD compete with the new USCR. The budgets to run DTM or a GT/prototype are relatively the same (and similar to IndyCar, and the Nascar Nationwide Series). These series would DIRECTLY compete for entries and sponsorship dollars. Hence the reason I think this is a colossally stupid idea which makes little or no sense. Unless the German manufacturers plan to pay for literally everything, I can't see where people are looking to get an ROI on this, because there doesn't appear to be any.
juicy sushi is offline  
__________________
have a nice diurnal anomaly...
Quote
Old 30 Mar 2013, 13:11 (Ref:3226858)   #134
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 18,739
FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!
For NASCAR it's a way to do business with manufacturers.
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Mar 2013, 13:21 (Ref:3226865)   #135
juicy sushi
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
in a pool of wasabi and soy sauce
Posts: 361
juicy sushi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE View Post
For NASCAR it's a way to do business with manufacturers.
Yes, but the teams? I would love to hear the pitch they'd have to make to sponsors:

"Yes, we want to do this new series, called DTM... Oh, it stands for some unpronounceable German thing."

"No, it doesn't really have any fanbase here yet, no one's ever heard of it."

"Yes, the cars are pretty expensive, you could get massive TV and media exposure with an Indy 500 or Nationwide entry, but this thing is really cool! It has a big wing, huge tires and makes a awesome sound!..."

"No, not as good as the sports cars, IndyCars or stock cars, but it's still a great sound!"

"What? How much? Well, we were thinking somewhere in the $ 4 million range for the season."

"Yes, yes the same as IndyCar or Nationwide."

"What's that? You want to do something more professional and potentially profitable? Oh, ok. How about Nationwide instead?"

DTM North America just doesn't seem to make any sense. It's late to an already crowded party.
juicy sushi is offline  
__________________
have a nice diurnal anomaly...
Quote
Old 30 Mar 2013, 14:47 (Ref:3226896)   #136
Andrew Abbott
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
England
Shrewsbury
Posts: 458
Andrew Abbott should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by juicy sushi View Post
"Yes, we want to do this new series, called DTM... Oh, it stands for some unpronounceable German thing."
Deutsche - Tourenwagen - Masters.

Not difficult now, was it?

What would they call the US series anyway? I think USTM would be quite a good name with a deference to the 'parent' series' name.

Also, the DTM is run far more professionally.
Andrew Abbott is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Mar 2013, 15:05 (Ref:3226906)   #137
broadrun96
Veteran
 
broadrun96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
United States
Posts: 11,215
broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
And the USTM would work as US Touringcar Masters without much of a stretch other than getting most people to understand what a 'Touring Car' is. I'm guessing Caddy would be behind this in a minute with a CTS-V and maybe moving the ATS(-V maybe) into WC or Conti challenge with the turbo 4. I would think they would want to push the USCR into more enduro events if this comes around, otherwise having a similar to GT series running only slightly shorter events could detract from the main event. And would the DTM bosses be ok with being a support series to USCR or NASCAR at their two Cup road course stops or Nationwide?
broadrun96 is online now  
Quote
Old 30 Mar 2013, 15:46 (Ref:3226918)   #138
juicy sushi
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
in a pool of wasabi and soy sauce
Posts: 361
juicy sushi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndySpeed View Post
Deutsche - Tourenwagen - Masters.

Not difficult now, was it?

What would they call the US series anyway? I think USTM would be quite a good name with a deference to the 'parent' series' name.

Also, the DTM is run far more professionally.
Hard for me to say? No. Hard for the average unilingual North American? Yes. And it has no brand value or name recognition.

No one uses the phrase touring car here, so USTM actually makes no sense, and how is the DTM run more professionally than NASCAR? The teams and crews are no more professional, and the sanctioning body is both less concerned about the fans and has less authority vis a vis the participants, so how is it more professional?
juicy sushi is offline  
__________________
have a nice diurnal anomaly...
Quote
Old 30 Mar 2013, 15:48 (Ref:3226920)   #139
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 18,739
FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!
Despite yes or no local interest the Germans want to spend money, NASCAR should turn them away?
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Mar 2013, 15:58 (Ref:3226924)   #140
juicy sushi
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
in a pool of wasabi and soy sauce
Posts: 361
juicy sushi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE View Post
Despite yes or no local interest the Germans want to spend money, NASCAR should turn them away?
It's not about NASCAR turning them away, it's about no fans bothering to show up, and no teams being able to find enough sponsorship to run the cars. The series would have no profile, no media awareness and no value for sponsors. So how are you going to get teams to pay for cars and get them on the grid? Audi, Mercedes and BMW may be all for it, but unless they plan on providing literally all the money for the series (at what, $3-4 million per car? Plus event costs), then the idea will get no traction.

And would Audi, Mercedes and BMW be willing to spend $18-24 million for a racing series with little return on marketing value. That kind of money buys a whole lot of advertising at the Superbowl and other media venues with a much clearer ROI.

As I said there are already at least 3 if not 4 series requiring the same budget levels, so where, in this economically fragile time is the money going to come from? No money, no racing.
juicy sushi is offline  
__________________
have a nice diurnal anomaly...
Quote
Old 30 Mar 2013, 16:08 (Ref:3226928)   #141
kmchow
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location:
Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Posts: 3,919
kmchow should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Here's more info about the series.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/29/g...-racing-to-us/

But unless the domestic manufacturers enter, the series will definitely struggle a lot more. Unless all the other "non-domestics" band together to support.

As well, the market position of the cars aren't helping. More people can afford a Focus, Civic, etc.. (as raced in the S2000) than a MB/BMW (as raced in the DTM).
kmchow is offline  
__________________
Supertouring Forever and Ever...
Quote
Old 31 Mar 2013, 03:21 (Ref:3227102)   #142
Matt
Veteran
 
Matt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
United States
Connecticut
Posts: 7,175
Matt is going for a new lap record!Matt is going for a new lap record!Matt is going for a new lap record!Matt is going for a new lap record!Matt is going for a new lap record!Matt is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
And the USTM would work as US Touringcar Masters without much of a stretch other than getting most people to understand what a 'Touring Car' is. I'm guessing Caddy would be behind this in a minute with a CTS-V and maybe moving the ATS(-V maybe) into WC or Conti challenge with the turbo 4. I would think they would want to push the USCR into more enduro events if this comes around, otherwise having a similar to GT series running only slightly shorter events could detract from the main event. And would the DTM bosses be ok with being a support series to USCR or NASCAR at their two Cup road course stops or Nationwide?
DTM will possibly be going to a 2.0l turbo next year...so the ATS would be perfect.
Matt is offline  
Quote
Old 31 Mar 2013, 21:12 (Ref:3227380)   #143
NaBUru38
Veteran
 
NaBUru38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Uruguay
Las Canteras, Uruguay
Posts: 10,356
NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by juicy sushi View Post

"Yes, we want to do this new series, called DTM... Oh, it stands for some unpronounceable German thing."
"Das Touringcar Masters" (TouringCar would be DTCM)
"Das Turbo Masters" (new engines for 2015)
"Das Texas Masters" (all races in Austin)
NaBUru38 is offline  
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed!
by NaBUrean Prodooktionz
naburu38.itch.io
Quote
Old 4 Apr 2013, 13:37 (Ref:3229095)   #144
NaBUru38
Veteran
 
NaBUru38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Uruguay
Las Canteras, Uruguay
Posts: 10,356
NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!
Marshall Pruett has interviewed Ed Bennett about the DTM America.

Quote:
You've got so many more manufacturers looking at it this year, if your minimum threshold is 18 cars or so, you're getting down to only needing three or four cars from each manufacturer to make a grid. If it was five, if a couple did three and a couple did four, you're there. For each manufacturer that’s significantly different than when it was 6x3. Spreading the burden.
That sounds great. But if there's 5 or more manufacturers, some won't be fighting for the championship. Sooner or later, a few will leave the championship.

The Argentine TC2000 has 6 manufacturers now, totalling 19 cars (a few are pay drivers). It's a thin balance.
NaBUru38 is offline  
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed!
by NaBUrean Prodooktionz
naburu38.itch.io
Quote
Old 4 Apr 2013, 13:40 (Ref:3229102)   #145
NaBUru38
Veteran
 
NaBUru38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Uruguay
Las Canteras, Uruguay
Posts: 10,356
NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!
A question: if DTM cars are spec, why are they so expensive in contrast with a GT3>
NaBUru38 is offline  
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed!
by NaBUrean Prodooktionz
naburu38.itch.io
Quote
Old 4 Apr 2013, 17:01 (Ref:3229204)   #146
juicy sushi
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
in a pool of wasabi and soy sauce
Posts: 361
juicy sushi should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaBUru38 View Post
A question: if DTM cars are spec, why are they so expensive in contrast with a GT3>
GT3 cars have been getting up there in price also. A Ferrari, McLaren or Mercedes would not be a cheap purchase.

The limited production runs of the chassis and other parts wouldn't help though.

Do DTM teams but the cars thought? Do they lease them from the manufacturers? What exactly is the business model? To me, I just don't see a viable one in North America.

After reading the interview, I see that Grand-Am don't have the answers either. They're being public with the process but also making the case that this will only come together if manufacturers all step up and get involved and agree to it.

The other interesting thing is the parallel he drew with NASCAR. This is quite close to the NASCAR model in many ways, and so may be a better fit with NASCAR's expertise and abilities than the traditional sports cars of Grand-Am/USCR. And it is true, the DTM model fits better with the personality and rivalry driven story telling of touring car racing than the more layered, multi-class world of sports cars. But the cars are still lousy unless someone gets them to see reason with their aerodynamics.

Last edited by juicy sushi; 4 Apr 2013 at 17:09.
juicy sushi is offline  
__________________
have a nice diurnal anomaly...
Quote
Old 4 Apr 2013, 17:33 (Ref:3229217)   #147
FIRE
Race Official
Veteran
 
FIRE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Netherlands
Posts: 18,739
FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!FIRE is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaBUru38 View Post
A question: if DTM cars are spec, why are they so expensive in contrast with a GT3>
They have spec parts (e.g. tub, gearbox and rear wing) but other parts are designed by the manufaturers (e.g. suspension, aero, engine).

Last edited by FIRE; 4 Apr 2013 at 17:39.
FIRE is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Apr 2013, 04:37 (Ref:3230175)   #148
helgi
Veteran
 
helgi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Russian Federation
Sergiev Posad, Moscow Region, Russian Fe
Posts: 1,546
helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I don't think that aero is not a spec part. Look at new cars - all the vents and their location are almost the same. And the shape of the car is almost the same. Not mentioning spec splitter, diffuser and wing.
I think most of cash flows into weight-fight. I've read RE where they say that DTM wanted to use more details from road-going cars but in that case they've got some 100 or 200 kg over the limit, so they had to use some expensive lightweight details.
As for personalities I totally agree. Today DTM cars are not interesting from engineering point of view. They are almost spec-cars. So, in the future World championship for drivers can be organized on the base of DTM, American DTM and Super GT, as cars are almost the same. And it would be a way more fair than F1.
helgi is offline  
__________________
ACO-Ratel-Lotti group of "entertainpreneurs" soon will make you think that Reverse-Gear-Racing is the most professional series in the world. "Faccio il pane con la farina che ho".
Quote
Old 13 May 2013, 04:17 (Ref:3246524)   #149
kmchow
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location:
Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Posts: 3,919
kmchow should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by juicy sushi View Post
Do DTM teams buy the cars though? Do they lease them from the manufacturers? What exactly is the business model? To me, I just don't see a viable one in North America.
For sure, you need the manufacturer permission to race "their" car, even if you put up all the money yourself. IE: Back when the DTM first restarted in '00, Zakspeed built a Volvo C70, but Volvo refused to let them race.

Since then, afaik, BMW/MB/Audi own the cars and they commission teams to run them. So even if you have money, they may not sell you a car.
kmchow is offline  
__________________
Supertouring Forever and Ever...
Quote
Old 13 Jul 2013, 11:58 (Ref:3277294)   #150
Andrew Abbott
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
England
Shrewsbury
Posts: 458
Andrew Abbott should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Not happening until 2017 now.

http://www.touringcars.net/2013/07/n...-at-least-2017
Andrew Abbott is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Spotters Guides : BTCC, WTCC, SCC and DTM (DTM added) andy_b Touring Car Racing 19 10 Oct 2007 19:53
What is happening in Townsville?? pete55 Australasian Touring Cars. 51 23 Dec 2006 13:48
Anything happening this weekend???? danccooke Marshals Forum 11 14 Apr 2005 21:17
What is happening to Toyota. Cobra Formula One 14 2 Jul 2003 15:28
What's happening whilst i was gone? Larsen Touring Car Racing 13 21 Feb 2001 22:08


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.