[WEC] 2014 FIA World Endurance Championship

[Rodger Davies]

Great series of pics Chiana. That perfectly illustrates why I often choose to watch another series' race over a WEC one, and in some instances another sport (eg: cycling or rallying).

Fortunate that those venues still have a decent sportscar field, but perfectly illustrates the reasons why I struggle to follow WEC.

[Maelochs]

Cycling is a great sport, but I don't watch it for the scenery.

Chiana, that one pic there was Road Atlanta through the esses. What has been done to hurt Road Atlanta? I have only been going a few years but it seems like there are lots of decent spectator spots.

Regarding the rest of your argument, I have to agree. Tracks which are essentially painted in parking lots are just not that exciting, and often not very appealing to see---not ugly, just flat and sterile. As dull as watching dry paint.

[Purist]

Maelochs, check Chiana's post again. He has three pictures after the first bit of text. Then, there is another line of text, and three more pictures below that. Road Atlanta is in that upper group: the "good" group. He's NOT criticizing Road Atlanta.

BTW, Chiana, which Tilkedromes are those you've posted pictures of? (Ok, I think I know which ones they are, but that's another issue.) You should be able to tell what circuit you're looking at; it shouldn't be work to figure it out.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Purist

[LIST]BTW, Chiana, which Tilkedromes are those you've posted pictures of? (Ok, I think I know which ones they are, but that's another issue.) You should be able to tell what circuit you're looking at; it shouldn't be work to figure it out.

The second Tilke-one is CotA and third is Bahrain, but tbh I have NO IDEA what the first one is I think it's Shanghai (or not???) since I searched for it but how should I know, as you said they all look and feel like the same sterile hospital environment.

Great arguments from you previously by the way, excellent stuff.

[J Jay]

I'm pretty sure the first "Tilkedrome" picture is from Silverstone, probably at the Arena complex.

I'm not disagreeing with the general point however - what's the use is going eleventy-hundred miles a second when the track is so far removed from anything that all sense of speed is lost? Those side-by-side comparisons really are damning; it's not the destination that matters, it's the journey.

[Deleted]

Probably yeah? New Silverstone is garbage regardless.

[Pontlieue]

If paved runoff areas are needed for the safety - no problem for me. But I get the impression that paved runoffs are used even where they aren't needed at all. A perfect example is turn 1 at Interlagos. The paved runoffs adds nothing at all to the safety of the circuit, they could just as well have left it as gravel or grass. Apparently they're now just paving runoff areas because it is considered "modern".

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Pontlieue

But I get the impression that paved runoffs are used even where they aren't needed at all.

They're not even necessarily the safest option (is it raining outside?), but it seems to be the default action to apply hot steamroller directly to the affected area.

Actually, Interlagos is a good example again. The tarmac runoff at the 2003 race didn't help m/any drivers...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Purist

TF110, the primary AND secondary purposes of run-off and barriers are to protect drivers and spectators from direct injury. Protecting vehicles from damage is a DISTANT, tertiary concern, period! If the drivers know they can't get away with stupid stuff without consequences, they'll drive better, and there will be less torn up machinery. There, problem solved, and it didn't cost anybody any money, because all the Grade 2 circuits already had the grass and gravel in place beforehand.

Why should street circuits be any different?! The laws of physics, the REAL final word, don't change from Lime Rock to Long Beach. Therefore, no, that is not acceptable or sensible. What makes a track safe or not does not change based on venue type or location, and hence, the rules that define what is "safe" or not should not change based on those factors.

I'm not "pretending" anything about the newer F1 tracks having or not having soul. They DON'T and CAN'T have real soul, certainly not compared to the classic, historic venues that haven't been heavily molested. There are reasons why people flock to stadium events and the like. There are reasons why X Games and Gravity Games events have gained popularity, and even footholds in the Olympics!

This "safety crusade" won't matter in the end. It will be the end of "traditional" motor sport, eventually, except for the Isle of Man. If something is popular/supported enough, it will have the strength/revenue to weather/settle the lawsuits. If it isn't, it's only one disaster, which will happen someday, away from oblivion.

If I can no longer get the sense of speed and spectacle on TV, and can't get close enough to see as well as I can, or have shade, at the track, there's no point in watching anymore. I also won't have anyone around me who will care anymore. I won't be able to share my enthusiasm for the sport with anyone, and trying will likely spark an argument, an argument I CAN'T win. Given my eyesight, I can't drive myself to the races, and if this trend continues, it won't matter, because nobody I have known who HAD a particular interest in motor racing will want to go. Thus, I won't have a ride, and won't be going anyway, regardless of how I feel.

All of this text has come about BECAUSE I have thought this all through, quite thoroughly. You are trying to make a reasoned argument regarding something that is emotive, which is a strategy that fundamentally will never work. On top of that, for myself and those I know personally who follow/have followed the sport, this trend in circuits not only diminishes our emotional attachment, but offends our common sense. Therefore, you have struck out on that front as well.

Times be damned! If you take away what allows myself and others to have an appreciation for the sport at all, we're going to cease to care, at which point, don't expect us to continue to give a damn. There is no arguing with the phrase, "I don't care!" So the sport had better figure it out and stop this trend before that point is reached, or else, the sport itself will cease to exist. What good are all your lovely, paved run-offs going to be then?!

In other words, why support these changes if it means the end of the sport you claim to love also?

Thats a big reply. I dont care for run offs. I didnt imply theyre there to save cars. I said its there for safety reasons. Thats the first thing I said in a previous post. Dont label me. I didnt label you. I didnt point to you in anything I said. But what I did say is people are living in the past if they think these series' (like the wec) will run at 'local tracks'. I dont see what the big deal is for you to spend all that time replying to me. I dont condone changes to these tracks, nor do I think its unneccesary. You speak for yourself, as do I. Whats funny is there is a generation of motorsport fans that will grow up looking at tracks like Austin, Shanghai etc. and have a different view on what should be a 'racetrack'. Not to laugh at what people like in scenic tracks, but gravel traps aren't pretty to look at. Dirt on the edge of the road? I like trees, and grass, and rocks. But what about Bahrainian's? Dont they like their scattered palm and desert? Not every track is the same. No run off is the same. No scenery is the same. What was grass or sand or gravel is now pavement. You or I may not like it, but thats not going to change the fia's stance on it for safety reasons. So while you may think Im for it, Im being realistic and getting on with it instead of wasting time doing anything else that wont matter in the end.

[Purist]

My answers to Bahrain, Dubai, and the like are Riverside and Stardust. I know they're not around anymore, but no, desert tracks can be attractive. Willow Springs isn't bad either.

I think a compounding factor is that a number of these newer track layouts are unnecessarily complicated. Technicality for its own sake doesn't adds nothing.

They tend to lack cambered corners, which has proven over the decades to be an invaluable asset to improving the racing, even road racing in many cases. And then the stupid thing about it is, they'll throw in one here or there, and technically, it's questionable whether a number of them are even legal under the FIA's own rules. Not to mention, Turn 8 at Istanbul is a cheat to get around the FIA's rule mandating that decreasing-radius corners be minimized, and if they are present, they must have a very low apex speed (like 75km/h).

Back to run-offs for a second, half of Yeongam (Korean Int'l Circuit) doesn't meet the FIA's own new, Grade 1 circuit requirements for run-offs. It's absurdity at its best, or worst.

And then they come up with these wide corner entries to aid overtaking, which they don't. You only see them used on the initial start, and even then, only at the first corner. Using them otherwise would compromise corner exit far too much. In addition, it violates a principal rule in track design, that being, you don't intentionally make the corner exit narrower than the corner entry. And when you look at the racing lines you get, it inherently increases the potential for mid-corner collisions. How is that a safety improvement?

I can't consider Road America to be a "local" track. Maybe someplace like Nelson Ledges or Cadwell Park fits that bill, but don't put down circuits that have gotten a full FIA Grade 2 rating. Also, if you're going to question some of the tracks with that rating, well, what does that say about the validity of said rating system, or its true applicability to real safety?

To go back to kind of what started this, is the Nordschleife really bumpier than several of the street circuits that the ALMS ran on?

Finally, does it matter what the locals in a given area think? It's the FIA's designated designers who are determining that for those locals anyway. Tilke and the FIA KNOW BETTER, and yet, this is what we get.

[TF110]

Fault the rule makers for the new tracks. But you have no choice of stepping up to their desires. The big name motorsport events pay the most. Half the tracks are government backed anyway. Not much you can change unless someone becomes a track designer. You can solve all this by not watching or attending events at those places, but then you may miss out on the quality series! "Whatta ya gonna do"?

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by TF110

Fault the rule makers for the new tracks. But you have no choice of stepping up to their desires. The big name motorsport events pay the most. Half the tracks are government backed anyway. Not much you can change unless someone becomes a track designer. You can solve all this by not watching or attending events at those places, but then you may miss out on the quality series!

I guess it's all subjective, I would rather use the term 'high profile' as racing on modern, technical tracks doesn't thrill me at all so it's hard for me to see the quality in that. Again, it's all a matter of opinion.

Originally Posted by TF110

"Whatta ya gonna do"?

Easy, you choice to ignore those series and watch 'lower profile' series on lower graded tracks. Or spend your time on something else.

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Cycling is a great sport, but I don't watch it for the scenery.

You don't? My wife and I do (partially, for scenery). It gives us ideas for places to visit.

[Maelochs]

That's almost funny. I have called my wife over numerous times when the director features some amazing chateau or some gorgeous landscape, but she is never impressed.

I have realized I will need to take short local vacations to go riding or to see races and she will never go anywhere unless i can research some place with really good shopping.

[Breitling24]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

That's almost funny. I have called my wife over numerous times when the director features some amazing chateau or some gorgeous landscape, but she is never impressed.

I have realized I will need to take short local vacations to go riding or to see races and she will never go anywhere unless i can research some place with really good shopping.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

I guess it's all subjective, I would rather use the term 'high profile' as racing on modern, technical tracks doesn't thrill me at all so it's hard for me to see the quality in that. Again, it's all a matter of opinion.



Easy, you choice to ignore those series and watch 'lower profile' series on lower graded tracks. Or spend your time on something else.

Quality I refer to as not amatuer racers or 'slow' cars. I dont care much for touring cars or junior formulas. I like the top level, high tech series'. This is the wec thread so thats what Im referring to mostly. If youre a fan of the wec and like series you can see them moving away from these 'scenic' tracks. And even the ones they do visit are changing. "Whatta ya gonna do" is me saying you either give up watching your favorite cars or just accept whats happening.

[Purist]

They're nearing a crossover point.

Honestly, yes, the cars in WEC are great, but a number of the tracks are not as great, or not as great anymore. Conversely, I'm certainly not as into WTCC for the cars. However, Suzuka has a great layout and setting, and hasn't added so much paved run-off (they're running the GP circuit this year, too). Spa has a great overall layout, setting, elevation changes, and not all the barriers are miles away, even now. Macau is pretty damn spectacular in its own way. Then, there's the Salzburgring. You know? In terms of the pure thrill of seeing the racing with that full package, I might just take WTCC at all four of those over WEC at Silverstone, Shanghai, or Fuji. I might take WTCC at Salzburgring and Macau over WEC at Silverstone, Shanghai, Fuji, Bahrain, and Austin.

(And that's just this year. You've heard where the German round for the WTCC is to be held next year, right? Now THAT is a high bar to clear!)

Funny thing is, since WEC is rather a sport for the hardcore, certainly compared to F1 or NASCAR, our input is much more important. If they can't draw us in sufficient numbers to (watch) their events, especially those outside Le Mans itself, their series WILL have a problem giving the sponsors RoI.

And yes, I have every intention of becoming a track designer myself, also.

[TF110]

So... heres the dates for the rest of the season



3 races in November! But a 3 month gap from Le Mans. This is the only way a fall/ winter schedule makes sense. Start late September end at Le Mans in June? Id rather the warm months be run in Europe and North America.

[TzeiTzei]

By the time they get to COTA, people probably won't remember that WEC even exists. I'm amazed that they could come up with a calendar like this.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

By the time they get to COTA, people probably won't remember that WEC even exists. I'm amazed that they could come up with a calendar like this.

I'm not since it's been the same crap for three years now (even the former August 2-2½ month gap was ridiculous)

*Ready to get bored the next time they announce the calendar with same exact races in it (in whatever order) and Neveu repeating how they want to build tradition and stability around these events*

[Purist]

Something interesting is that, by and large, the events in the early WSC were ALREADY the big events for the sport; the same was true of F1 when it started. Of course, with fewer notable events period, most of the "stand out" events at the time were the big events by default. When your calendar is made up of some mix of the Mille Miglia, Targa Florio, Le Mans, Carrera Panamericana, Tourist Trophy (at Dundrod, Goodwood, or Oulton Park), Sebring 12 Hours, Nurburgring 1000km, Daytona Continental/24 Hours, Monza 1000km, Spa 1000km, and the like, you've got all the strongest pieces in play. The product can more easily sell itself, and you don't have that negativity of some beloved event being left out, and people complaining about it. That's another thing, now, if an event isn't on the WEC calendar, it doesn't happen at all that year. Back in the 1950s and '60s, the races still happened, even if they weren't in the WSC every season. The ONLY race that that happens for anymore is Le Mans itself, and we wonder why it's so much stronger than any of the others?!

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I'm not since it's been the same crap for three years now (even the former August 2-2½ month gap was ridiculous)

*Ready to get bored the next time they announce the calendar with same exact races in it (in whatever order) and Neveu repeating how they want to build tradition and stability around these events*

The big gap could just be what is needed to somehow convert to the winter schedule they are trying to achieve.

[TF110]

Brazil and Japan are probably the most notable races left imo. Fuji will be very popular thanks to Toyota and Brazil always has great enthusiasm. They need an event in Germany. Every factory lmp1 team is based in Germany, even TMG- Cologne. If Canada and Nurburgring are added it would add more to look forward to imo.

[Articus]

COTA is nice too!! Although I didn't exactly watch the race last year. With 3 manufacturers, I'm in it till the end this year, now matter how log we have to wait.

[ederss7]

Definition of "sport": "sport (or sports) is all forms of usually competitive physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical ability and skills while providing entertainment to participants, and in some cases, spectators".(Wikipedia)
IMO "Tilkodromes or butchered tracks" require less skills for the drivers, making motorsport less attractive as a sport.