Group A Alfa Romeo 75

[jd yort]

MPC Are you referring to the old Mike Griffen / Mark Gibbs / Donnelly 120Y (it was recently sold on ebay)??

[MPC]

Hi jd yore, no the car was built by my father at the end of 1992 to replace his rotary powered Mk1 Escort sports sedan.

I think the car is currently for sale on www.my105.com.au in basically the same spec as when Dad sold it in early 1998.

[metro6r4rallycar]

hi, what about imsa 75 giro italia 1988 ?

[KA]

What seem to be a couple of recent pics of the Jon Dooley ARDT/John West 75, looking like it's hardly been touched since it last appeared in the BTCC!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgew...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgew...in/photostream

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

What seem to be a couple of recent pics of the Jon Dooley ARDT/John West 75, looking like it's hardly been touched since it last appeared in the BTCC!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgew...in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgew...in/photostream

Good find KA!!!

Hmm I wonder what's the story here then? I know Jon regularly raced in Top Hat and Euro Historics recently in various steeds, but I wonder if this car is about to hit the tracks again or if it has simply been sold and was snapped in transit to a new owner/prep shop?

Would be a cracking addition to the MRL/JD series if it can be readied?

The other thing that springs to mind is that i'm fairly sure that the basis of this car was actually the GTV6 (the 2 cars shared the same platform IIRC?) although about 10 years ago when I interviewed Jon, he reckoned he still had the GTV6 in which case the 2 cars cannot have the same chassis!

I'm sure the UK Alfisti that lurk amongst us can tell us more.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Good find KA!!!

I wonder if this car is about to hit the tracks again or if it has simply been sold and was snapped in transit to a new owner/prep shop?

The other thing that springs to mind is that i'm fairly sure that the basis of this car was actually the GTV6 (the 2 cars shared the same platform IIRC?) although about 10 years ago when I interviewed Jon, he reckoned he still had the GTV6 in which case the 2 cars cannot have the same chassis!

Great find! It looks like the dreaded Alfa weavels are eating the lower edges of the doors, hopefully nothing that can't be easily remedied.

Regardless of the similar platform, surely it would be far easier to convert a GTV6 into a 75 by replacing the shell, than modifying it!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

Great find! It looks like the dreaded Alfa weavels are eating the lower edges of the doors, hopefully nothing that can't be easily remedied.

Regardless of the similar platform, surely it would be far easier to convert a GTV6 into a 75 by replacing the shell, than modifying it!

Sorry David, yes that's what I meant! IIRC that's what he actually did!

[T-Man]

There were 2 Alfa 75's weren't there?

One in the older V6 trim, with white bumpers
and the other one in the proper Turbo Evoluzione trim with red Bumpers and also the bigger wheelarches and side valances.

Could this be some kind of mixture between the two?

[KA]

Yes, there were 2 Alfa Romeo Dealer Team/John West 75s, one each for Jon Dooley and Rob Kirby.

They ran as V6s in 1986, then turbos in 1987, with the Evoluzione bodykit in red, as you describe.

As I remember, they didn't get the Evo kit until after the start of the season- Dooley's car certainly didn't have it at the early-season Oulton round: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...on%20Park.html I don't know if Kirby's car ever got the Evo kit- it only ran a few races as a turbo.

The Kirby car proved so troublesome in 75 Turbo form, (I don't think it ever finished a race as a turbo) that it was converted back to a 1986-spec V6 by the time of the Silverstone British GP meeting, and I think was written off in a shunt at the next race after that (Brands IIRC?) It certainly didn't appear again, and there was just a single 75 Turbo for Dooley for the rest of the year.

Dooley's car came out again for a couple of rounds right at the end of the 1988 season- Donington (a DNS) and Silverstone, and had been returned to V6 spec, and with red bumpers, as in the recent pics.

[Jesper OH]

I think the Dooley car by late 1988, was in fact running with a newly homologated 3-litre engine, possible as the British class B was running from 2001-3000 cc. But, still a great looking car.

Jesper

[KA]

Thanks Jesper- yes that rings a bell with me as well.

I can't think of many appearances by a 3-litre 75 in a Group A race apart from Dooley's couple of outings...CiBiEmme ran one in the Spa 24 hours earlier in the season, to very little effect, despite a pretty serious driver lineup of Francia/Larini/Cecotto. http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-31-010.jpg

Were there any others? CiBiEmme's was a one-off, unless they ran the car at home in Italy.

It didn't help that the ETC's traditional 2500cc class split rules put the 3-litre Alfa in the 'big' class against the RS500s- the same problem that Bemani's 3.0 n/a Supras faced...As you say, it made slightly more sense with the BTCC's 2001-3000cc class split

A couple more Alfa 75 pics found on Flickr- Alfa Corse at the 1987 TT. Pics by 'Karting Nord' aka Martin Lee

http://www.flickr.com/photos/karting...57629401830855

http://www.flickr.com/photos/karting...57629401830855

http://www.flickr.com/photos/karting...57629401830855

[KA]

..and another of the Dooley car...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgew...in/photostream

[jonkerb]

both cars are still together , the kirby car having never been repaired from its brands hatch accident,the dooley car is almost a complete car ,the kirby car not so complete.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by jonkerb

both cars are still together , the kirby car having never been repaired from its brands hatch accident,the dooley car is almost a complete car ,the kirby car not so complete.

Welcome jon.....

Thanks for this input, could you tell us a bit more about what you know/have seen recently and if there are any plans to return the 'better' car to the track in any capacity?

[metalmicky]

the salmon can 75,s will run again may take a little time but they will stay together as they have been adopted by someone who is totally and i mean totally dedicated to the alfa cause and history,wont become a hotrods or be split up.the dooley car is in great shape if a little tired and the kirby car is headed for a top body jigging outfit to have the front corner repaired and will appear with its sister car as and when the time is right in the future.

[chunterer]

Welcome micky, and thanks for the news it is good to know they are going to be restored for racing. The Uk we hope?

I believe at least one of the cars was stored in the dry so hopefully the condition of the bodywork, particularly those areas we can't see from the flickr pictures, are still workable?!

Do you happen to know what Jon may have planned for the GTV6 by any chance? As I thought that the 75 'took' that cars chassis?

[metalmicky]

the 75 ,s were there own cars ,although they share the gtv 6 running gear they are a longer floorpan .the gtv6 went in the other direction ,staying in the uk and as it should be historically,the 75,s are staying in the ukand will stay together.also in the same deal was the 24 hour alfetta from the early 80,swhich has come to roost with my prodsaloon alfetta from the 1985 willhire,

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by metalmicky

the 75 ,s were there own cars ,although they share the gtv 6 running gear they are a longer floorpan .the gtv6 went in the other direction ,staying in the uk and as it should be historically,the 75,s are staying in the ukand will stay together.also in the same deal was the 24 hour alfetta from the early 80,swhich has come to roost with my prodsaloon alfetta from the 1985 willhire,

micky when you say the GTV6 'went the other direction,' what do you mean by that if i may ask?

Also can you tell us what sort of work will be involved in sorting both cars to return them to raceworhtiness, other than straightening out a very bent ex Kirby car!!

[alffetta]

I think what micky is trying to say is the gtv6 went in my direction!

The 75's were LHD and started life with some of the GTV6 running gear from both the ARDT GTV6's , front brakesand suspension , 2500cc engines, gearboxes and initially the GTV6 dedion with lowered watt linkage, as before one prepared by Bob Dove the other by Rob Kirby. The dedions were changed back because the lowered watt link wasnt needed with the higher 75's roll center.
The cars were then given 1800 turbo units (via imberti I think) and the front suspension was updated with Alfa 6 uprights, center lock front hubs , huge AP calipers and the full evo body kit.
The Turbo units never really performed well and were unreliable so the cars reverted back to the V6, the evo kits slowed the cars down because they were so low at the front they made kerb hoping difficult and were removed, then the kirby accident happened as a result of the front wheel arrangement.
Jons car was then converted back to the older front suspension and hubs, converted by Bob to RHD and 3000cc.
As a note Robs GTV6 shell and some parts were sold to Peter Hilliard who completed the car with parts from the Terry Drury racing GTV6 programme. It was raced to great success in the AROC race series by peter then Vic Woods and Chris snowdon. It was destroyed in a massive crash and chris built the remains into a new shell and updated it for its then owner.
The Dooley GTV6 was rolled at a charity/sponsers day at snetterton at the end of 85. The car was rebuilt but due to the switch to the 75 never completed (hence single GTV6 entry in 86 opening round). Its now in my garage beside My ex peter Hilliard/leo Bertorreli 81 TT Grp 2 Alfetta GTV awaiting restoration. The Nice thing is Bob Dove who built the car in the first place is helping me do it again

Anyway I thought I would butt in

[Graham Clayton]

Originally Posted by KA

Anything known about the Kopf car mentioned? It only appeared once, right at the end of the season

Here is a picture of the Kopf car:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alfa75Turbo.jpg

[KA]

Thanks Graham, I think that's the first pic I've ever seen of that car- and following the German Wikipedia link from that pic reveals that Michael Kopf (and the MK Tuning team who prepared it) seem to have been Austrian, rather than German as I'd thought.

He seems to have been another regular 'Alfa man', having previously run a GTV6...

http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/p%...%20Sprint.html

http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...20100915012935

Incidentally, going back to the Dooley/Kirby ARDT 75s, they also seem to have made a couple of appearances in Thundersaloon races- I thought I'd already mentioned them, but it was probably in the 1986 BTCC thread, rather than this one. There are some pics in this gallery from photographer Brendan MacFarlane's website:

http://www.brendanmcfarlane.co.uk/20...=12&gallery=45

Going by the early-season date (12th April) which was between Silverstone, where ARDT entered a solo GTV6 for Kirby, and Thruxton where they debuted the 75s, I guess this was being used to give the car an early shakedown outing before it's BTCC debut-

Apparently there was at least one more early-season Thundersaloon outing at Brands in April or May

[rttk01]

I discovered your discussion today by chance. I'm Kopf Michaels son. The Team was a austrian privat racing team with factory support by Alfa Romeo.
So if u want more informations you can contact me.

regards

Thomas Kopf

[KA]

Hi Thomas- Yes please, we'd love to hear more about your father's Alfas, particularly details of where they raced, and what happened to them- and especially any photos you might want to post. I know very little about any of the Alfas that appeared in DTM in the 1980's.

Looking at the picture, one thing I notice immediately is the Ford logos and branding on the building- From those signs, it looks as if your family business was a Ford dealership? (Is that the 75 turbo parked at the front of the photo outside the garage?)
It's interesting that a Ford dealer raced Alfa Romeos!

[KA]

Originally Posted by jonkerb

both cars are still together , the kirby car having never been repaired from its brands hatch accident,the dooley car is almost a complete car ,the kirby car not so complete.

Just found this pic on Flickr- I'm guessing this is the Brands shunt for the Kirby car!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hard_dr...7629435991339/

[Buildtech]

Originally Posted by KA

Just found this pic on Flickr- I'm guessing this is the Brands shunt for the Kirby car!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/hard_dr...7629435991339/

Yes; that is the Kirby car, front end into the tyre wall at Westfield. I took the photo.