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Old 16 Dec 2013, 01:21 (Ref:3344437)   #16
R.Lee
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Originally Posted by LateModel24 View Post
In Europe, we don't really have professional oval racing. Then, when we have a series like the Whelan NASCAR Euro Series, we run into big problems around sanctioning bodies. Long circuit motorsport in Europe is all run under the control of the FIA and it's national governing bodies. Short track oval racing is all run by individual promoters: Spedeworth, CAMSO, etc. The FIA gets very upset when people decide to go racing on non-approved circuits. There is no benefit for a short oval to get FIA approval; they don't need it.

As for Tours "speedway", it's a temporary oval certified to FIA specification which means those temporary barriers and no concrete wall. Other than Tours, Rockingham and Lausitz are FIA certified but too big for a NASCAR touring series.

I wonder if there is any way that the Euro Series can drop it's FIA International status and have more freedom to run short ovals?
You know, LateModel24, back in the mid to late 40s, right after then end of World War II, numerous small tracks sprung up all around the Southern United States. Several loosly organized groups sanctioned different races on these small ovals. Many of the drivers that competed at these tracks were drivers that the night before had delievered illegal "moonshine" from the Hills of North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia and North Georgia. There was a potential for organization and along about 1947 or so, a group, headed by a gentleman, named William H.G. (Big Bill) France, met, in a Hotel in Daytona Beach, Florida. That day, NASCAR was formed. It sounds like you are at that same place now, with regards to the small ovels, that we were here, back in 47. Perhaps you need a "Big Bill" France, to step forward, take the reigns and do the same there, with regards to organizing the independent promoters and small ovals. So what if the FIA gets upset, they can't do anything to stop someone that would do this, I don't believce. NASCAR use to fool with the FIA, through it's represenative ACCUS, here in the U.S., but it got in the way, more than anything else and NASCAR finally just ignored them and/or told them to "Take a hike". As you know, NASCAR has done quite well, without FIA interference. I don't know if ACCUS still exists, but all they did was got in the way. They got no respect and we commonly fefered to them as JACCUS! Non FIA tracks can be just as safe as FIA tracks, if the owners/operators are willing to spend the money to make the tracks safe. I'm guessing that someone could organize those independent ovals into a group, offer the group of tracks to NASCAR to run the Euro Series on and you'd have quite a good series of races each year. You wouldn't be up to the task, would you?
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Old 16 Dec 2013, 16:40 (Ref:3344658)   #17
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To be perfactly honest most sjort ovals in the UK wouldnt be interested in running a series like this.

No one would be interested in watching it, as they werent really interested in ASCAR and late models.

I can understand them runnng on normal tracks but they would be effectivly running as outlaws on ORCi tracks, and getting them a date would be difficult.

A track like Brafield or Birmigham would be too small, Wimbledon is on its last klegs and very unsafe.

You might be able to run somewhere like Venray, but thats where Late Models ran and didnt do a rgeat deal sadly.

We just aint Americans, and the only way any kind of non contact stock car series would ever even have a chance at working (and a slim one at that) would be to get trucks or Nationwide, or heaven forbid Spring cars over.

And that aint happening, just as it hasnt happened anywhere else in the world, coz y see, the Yanks are too easily pleased and we need a little mroe than that Im afraid!
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Old 16 Dec 2013, 21:28 (Ref:3344772)   #18
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Originally Posted by R.Lee View Post
You know, LateModel24, back in the mid to late 40s, right after then end of World War II, numerous small tracks sprung up all around the Southern United States. Several loosly organized groups sanctioned different races on these small ovals. Many of the drivers that competed at these tracks were drivers that the night before had delievered illegal "moonshine" from the Hills of North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia and North Georgia. There was a potential for organization and along about 1947 or so, a group, headed by a gentleman, named William H.G. (Big Bill) France, met, in a Hotel in Daytona Beach, Florida. That day, NASCAR was formed. It sounds like you are at that same place now, with regards to the small ovels, that we were here, back in 47. Perhaps you need a "Big Bill" France, to step forward, take the reigns and do the same there, with regards to organizing the independent promoters and small ovals. So what if the FIA gets upset, they can't do anything to stop someone that would do this, I don't believce. NASCAR use to fool with the FIA, through it's represenative ACCUS, here in the U.S., but it got in the way, more than anything else and NASCAR finally just ignored them and/or told them to "Take a hike". As you know, NASCAR has done quite well, without FIA interference. I don't know if ACCUS still exists, but all they did was got in the way. They got no respect and we commonly fefered to them as JACCUS! Non FIA tracks can be just as safe as FIA tracks, if the owners/operators are willing to spend the money to make the tracks safe. I'm guessing that someone could organize those independent ovals into a group, offer the group of tracks to NASCAR to run the Euro Series on and you'd have quite a good series of races each year. You wouldn't be up to the task, would you?
The ACCUS still exist, and apparently NASCAR is a member. Bit of a strange one the ACCUS as while it's the ASN for the US, it's not an actual sanctioning body in the sense of the MSA or CAMS etc.

I'm actually interested in the differences of the safety features between say a Cup car and something like an LMP car. The only reason for choosing LMP is that the car speeds are similar (i.e. 200+ mph) and they're both car-ish...
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Old 22 Dec 2013, 03:32 (Ref:3346827)   #19
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To be perfactly honest most sjort ovals in the UK wouldnt be interested in running a series like this.

No one would be interested in watching it, as they werent really interested in ASCAR and late models.

I can understand them runnng on normal tracks but they would be effectivly running as outlaws on ORCi tracks, and getting them a date would be difficult.

A track like Brafield or Birmigham would be too small, Wimbledon is on its last klegs and very unsafe.

You might be able to run somewhere like Venray, but thats where Late Models ran and didnt do a rgeat deal sadly.

We just aint Americans, and the only way any kind of non contact stock car series would ever even have a chance at working (and a slim one at that) would be to get trucks or Nationwide, or heaven forbid Spring cars over.

And that aint happening, just as it hasnt happened anywhere else in the world, coz y see, the Yanks are too easily pleased and we need a little mroe than that Im afraid!
You seem to say that like someone that really does not want it to have a chance to succeed, like maybe you are afraid that it could or would succeed. It the late 40s, there was a fanbase of a particular form of racing here in the U.S., that said the same thing about stock car racing and especially about the newly founded, at that time, NASCAR. They claimed that there was no interest in stock cars and in this new formed NASCAR sanctioning body for stock car racing. They said that there was no way that it would catch on, no way that it would succeed. Not only did they say that, as it grew and grew, they more openly voiced their displeasure that it was succeeding and their desire for it not to succeed. They took it to great lengths to express their hopes that it wouldn't succeed. In what can only be labled poetic justice, NASCAR not only succeeded, but did so, so much to the point that it knocked their form of racing off of the "top of the hill" of American auto racing! I'm not saying that you hold their views or are like them, just saying that some of what you have said sounds exactly like what they were saying. I've never understood that view, since the U.S. is a big country and there is plenty of room and plenty of people for there to be room for the success of multiple form of auto racing, without the need to look down on, bash one or another form different from what one may enjoy and wish another form to not be successful. Likewise, I would think that the same sitution exists there and in the rest of the world. I should think that the view of every fan of auto racing, SHOULD be, I like and watch what I like and anyone else should be allowed to do the same thing. It's a simple concept, really. Just enjoy what you enjoy and let others enjoy what they enjoy.

I don't think you really have to worry about NASCAR sending the Sprint Cup, Nationwide or Camping World Series there. NASCAR is really not interested in expanding, much beyond the borders of the U.S. Aside from maybe a race on the U.S.-Canada border, which would serve the U.S. market as much as the Canadian market, they have little interest. Yes, they did a couple of exibition races in Australia and in Japan, a few years ago, but those were not expansions into those countries, just exibitions. There was a spin-off in Australia, a local NASCAR style series, AUSCAR and for a short time, as NASCAR Sprint Cup Style series. They did not last, but there is more to the story than meets eye. I have friends there and they said that the two were doing quite well, building popularity, but that the two series were ultimately killed off by the then head of what morphed into the V8 Supercar Series, with a WHOLE LOT of backing from a little anal JERK named bernie! Otherwise, they believe the series would have continued to grow and would have ultimately been a huge success.

What many forget or don't understand is that the Euro Series is one of the five regional touring series, that are development series for the three above mentioned, top series of NASCAR. The Canadian Tire, Toyoda Mexican and Whelen Euro Series are not so much international expansion efforts, by NASCAR into their respective countries/continents, but instead set up more to find and develop new talent for the three top NASCAR series! If there were not an interest in stock cars, even if it is a minor interest, compaired to other forms of racing there, NASCAR would not have a series there. My question is, is it really a lack of interest there or is it more the fear of some, that interest does exist and that they are afraid that, that interest might be uncovered/discovered, nourished and developed. The same situation that occured in Australia, according to my friends there, where the interest was killed off!

Too easily pleased? How so? I really do not get the point you are trying make with that statement.

Also, you say that the tracks at Brafield or Birmigham are too small, what are their lengths (please give in statute mile mesurement, not metric, as I want to compare them to a couple of tracks here in the U.S.) Are they smaller than Bowman Gray Stadium (1/4 mile in length) and Islip Speedway (.2 miles), in New York, Each of these tracks, and numerous others around the country were and/or are still used for stock car racing, by NASCAR and other series. Bowman Gray and Islip were used by the old NASCAR Grand National Division, (today, the Sprint Cup Series) back when they ran the old 1st and 2nd generation cars. Those cars were MUCH larger than the cars that are raced in the Sprint Cup Series, today!

Understand, I am not attacking you, I am just pointing out that what you said -- "No one would be interested here", "...aint happening, just as it hasnt happened anywhere else in the world", etc., I have heard allot of people, that did not/do not want stock car racing and especially NASCAR to succeed. Thank you, in advance for any reply answer to the questions I ask above.
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Old 22 Dec 2013, 03:43 (Ref:3346828)   #20
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Originally Posted by PabloTeK View Post
The ACCUS still exist, and apparently NASCAR is a member. Bit of a strange one the ACCUS as while it's the ASN for the US, it's not an actual sanctioning body in the sense of the MSA or CAMS etc.
Yes, JACCUS still exists and I believe NASCAR still maintains some form of relationship with them, but they seem to be more of a hinderance than anything else. I don't believe they are bothered by or with them very much. I believe NASCAR does FAR BETTER without them, that with them!

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Originally Posted by PabloTeK View Post
I'm actually interested in the differences of the safety features between say a Cup car and something like an LMP car. The only reason for choosing LMP is that the car speeds are similar (i.e. 200+ mph) and they're both car-ish...
About the best thing I could suggest to find out, might be to contact NASCAR and inquire about the safety of the Generation 6 Car and contact whatever sanctioning body, series that controls LMP racing and make similar inquires, then compare the two. I don't see any why both should not agree to provide the requested information.
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Old 22 Dec 2013, 12:08 (Ref:3346920)   #21
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Mr Lee

I understand your point, but you are in the US, where this kind of racing has its origins!

We are, how can I put it, not quite as large a country and maybe a little more sophisticated in our tastes historically.

We do have a very well supported short oval scene in the UK, but it is largely split into non and full contact. Something you guys dont really do any of, (other than those awful Destruction derby things, you could do so much better). And it is also not recognised by our moronic governing body the RACMSA who just turn a blind eye to formula that have more drivers in them than three quarters of all the tin pot car racing formulae on 'proper' circuits do put together. It is almost a pirate show!! The cars are safe, the tracks are well looked after and safe.

So, the short tracks already exist, their fixtures lists are pretty full already, so as a promoter you are not going to risk dropping dates for something like this that no-one really has an interest in. Unless you can guaranteee a crowd, and that crowd only comes with names.

It has been tried already, when Rockingham was built they bought over a load of ASA cars, got some real good guys to drive them, tv deal etc and it utterly bombed! Because Europeans aren't interested in oval racing, in Germany too DTM got bigger crowds than ASCAR did, and their oval is a white elephant as Rockingham is.

You don't have a Nurburgring, your biggest track has 4 corners! Says it all about the differences between us in our tastes I am afraid, You go wild about the corkscrew! Have any of you guys see the Karussell or Flugplatz! Jeez.

Being serious, it is a question of taste, Europeans might go and watch a proper NASCAR full meeting in Germany or the UK, but some smaller formula would only get as much interest as bombers or regional late models perhaps. We just aren't interested.

It is not fear at all, honestly. Some of us would love it, but we don't have the infrastructure, interest or desire to take up large scale oval racing, not when those that do can hop on a plane and watch it there. That is where the US started 60 odd years ago, in Europe we had been racing cars for 100 years before that! On roads, circuits, Brooklands was closed before you guys got serious!!! lol

Its simply a cultural thing, nothing else.
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Old 25 Dec 2013, 17:59 (Ref:3347835)   #22
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Tours oval is going to be permanent.

This series are really entertaining and the cars are very cheap to run. I recommend everybody to go to the track to watch one of their races.
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Old 25 Dec 2013, 21:14 (Ref:3347861)   #23
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Tours oval is going to be permanent.

This series are really entertaining and the cars are very cheap to run. I recommend everybody to go to the track to watch one of their races.
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Old 25 Dec 2013, 21:35 (Ref:3347866)   #24
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Its simply a cultural thing, nothing else.
Perhaps this single statement explains it, better than anything else. You might want to check your history though. There was auto racing in the U.S. over 100 years ago. Anyway, thanks for clairfying that.
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Old 30 Dec 2013, 20:55 (Ref:3349035)   #25
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This thread concerning the differences is totally ignoring-- the simple fact -- the absolute differences in racing history between this side of the pond and over there.
In U.S. there were dozens of makes,= pre-WW II and right after WW II still over one-half dozen makes, who were racing stocks cars in regional ( what NASCAR is now only came about in less than the past twenty years) series or singular races across the country hundreds of time a month or even weekly at times.
What exists now is a shadow of what once was and really is really a third or fourth cousin to what existed pretty much through the eighties in the U.S..

The closest item in the U.K. was Jaguar and Rover maybe Mercedes in sedan road races.

Had there been Jaguars, Rolls Royces, Bentleys, Mercedes, Rover, Maserati etc. sedans running out on the ovals that still existed in the U.K. and Europe, then maybe persons over there would have been interested while cheering for their favorite make but that did not happen; therefore because the U.S. had major series involving sports cars, sedans (road and oval) and multiple types of open wheel cars-- people here have or at least had especially when weekly racing newspapers flourished-- a good idea of what was going on in all aspects, multiple types open wheel, mutliple types sports and two forms of sedans, while people on that side of the pond were mostly in the dark beyond F-1, and road racing .
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Old 31 Dec 2013, 06:30 (Ref:3349103)   #26
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My knowledge of the origins of racing on both sides of the Atlantic is slim I admit but the UK had long track oval racing a long time ago at Brooklands. 1907 - 2 years before Indianapolis so maybe the UK "invented" oval racing??? The circuit was later used for the ww2 effort and not returned to racing. Most post ww2 racing in the UK then started to take place on former airfield perimeter tracks with left and right turns.

Last edited by andy97; 31 Dec 2013 at 06:46.
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Old 31 Dec 2013, 13:36 (Ref:3349189)   #27
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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe View Post
This thread concerning the differences is totally ignoring-- the simple fact -- the absolute differences in racing history between this side of the pond and over there.
In U.S. there were dozens of makes,= pre-WW II and right after WW II still over one-half dozen makes, who were racing stocks cars in regional ( what NASCAR is now only came about in less than the past twenty years) series or singular races across the country hundreds of time a month or even weekly at times.
I believe I made mention of this, at least with regared to in the U.S., with my statement:

"back in the mid to late 40s, right after then end of World War II, numerous small tracks sprung up all around the Southern United States. Several loosly organized groups sanctioned different races on these small ovals. Many of the drivers that competed at these tracks were drivers that the night before had delievered illegal "moonshine" from the Hills of North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia and North Georgia. There was a potential for organization and along about 1947 or so, a group, headed by a gentleman, named William H.G. (Big Bill) France, met, in a Hotel in Daytona Beach, Florida. That day, NASCAR was formed."

from above.

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What exists now is a shadow of what once was and really is really a third or fourth cousin to what existed pretty much through the eighties in the U.S..
That can be prety much said about every professional racing series today. All are shadows of their former selves, none of them are what they were, 40, 30, 20, even 10 years ago.
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Old 31 Dec 2013, 13:41 (Ref:3349191)   #28
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All very interesting

But doesnt change the fact that in Europe we really dont give a chuff about NASCAR and they dont give a chuff about the rest of the world!
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Old 31 Dec 2013, 19:44 (Ref:3349314)   #29
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I don΄t understand so much argue on the oval racing when the EuroNascar only has 1 oval venue and is a short flat oval.

Running at Lausitz or Rockingham is far beyord the teams current capabilties. They cannot afford managing the fast oval specific setups and possible write offs caused by wrecks at high speed. You have to whatch EuroNascar as stock cars wunning european touring car races.
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Old 31 Dec 2013, 20:56 (Ref:3349323)   #30
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It might be worth mentioning that Brands Hatch running of the American Speedfest in June this year was huge and gave them the biggest crowd except bikes, it even beat touring cars.
They got bits wrong but they got a lot right with the razmatazz and victory lane was a great idea
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