[Tech Issue] Closed cockpits- Closer to reality then we might think?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

In recent posts since the Bianchi accident and even before this, there seems to be the view that it would simply be a F16 style (blown bubble with no vertical supports) cockpit grafted onto the current cars. Or alternatively some hideously weird mutation of an LMP car with a roof and doors. I even saw someone on here suggest that it would look like the the Delta Wing.

Perhaps the introduction of a an enclosed cockpit could be the stimulus into making F1 cars look unique again. If Joe public was presented by a display of an F1, a GP 2 and a WSR3.5 all in the same livery how many could tell them apart?

I'm no car designer, but I can't help but feel this could be a point at which F1 re-launches itself given the opportunity to do so.

[Tucky]

I know driver safety is paramount but I honestly can't think of an enclosed cockpit car as an F1 car. I'm not trying to be flippant about Jules or driver safety, it's just F1 to me is an open wheel and open cockpit formula.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

F1 used to be a front engined, no seatbelts and leather cap formula but it evolved... it's time to evolve again

[Tucky]

I agree F1's constantly evolving and a closed cockpit is likely with everything that has happened in the past few years, but it's just my own opinion which will no doubt have to change, but it'll probably take a bit of time getting used to.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Drivers want a rethink on closed cockpits.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116234

Well...Closed cockpits are not going to happen are they....

What do you think?

[Steevp]

I honestly don't think a closed cockpit would have helped Jules, The canopy would need framing capable of withstanding a full on frontal impact from a solid block of metal.. to be that strong it would need bulk and that would impede the drivers view no matter where it's fitted.. I doubt an LMP1 car would have protected a driver any better than the F1 car in that crash.. a windscreen would just introduce shattered plastic/glass into the equation.

As far as I can see the best cure is to ban all objects that a car could go "under" from the circuit, and/or welding metal skirts around the type of crane used at Suzuka. so the car would impact a flat surface, it's designed for that type of accident.

[Armco Bender]

What about something like the high front roll bar on the March 782's?.Gives some frontal protection,in conjuctuction with the cockpit windscscreen.
Current F1 design with the flat front nose theres nothing stopping something like a tyre from smacking the driver square in the face.

[steve_r]

The Bianchi incident has revived this discussion. I can't bring myself to watch the incident, so I do not have any opinion as to the usefulness of the closed cockpit for that accident.

However we should not forget that Chilton was within a few inches of serious injury or worse at the British GP, thanks to the flying Ferrari wheel which only narrowly missed his head.

[bella]

genuinely don't think the canopy would have helped jules. it might have saved him from being knocked out, but the deceleration injury would have still occured. bear in mind you're talking about an accident that sheared off the entirety of the back end of the car to just below his helmet level up to his helmet. it'd have taken off the canopy too.

i think i'm broadly against the canopy concept in f1, not from a safety perspective but more from an existential angle. f1 and sportscars are increasingly edging closer and closer together, and this would bring them so close that it'd raise many questions about whether it need exist at all.

on the other hand, there could be the potential for all kinds of coolness like shared technology and chassis, where f1 is the sprint variation in a race to finish a set number of laps and endurance is more, er, lasting the distance. same kit, used for a different end result and with different bodywork.

actually it sounds quite cool

[Casper]

The surrounding changes that would have to be built into the cars would make it very difficult to implement in F1. Demisiting, wipers, cooling etc will present real problems, cooling would be the most difficult to deal with. Apart from that another 10,000 hours in the wind tunnel to minimise the aero impact should keep costs down.

[bravo]

From what I have seen of the accident, the deceleration looks to have been caused by the very solid rollover hoop hitting the tractor. The deceleration could only have been reduced in that accident by hitting the tractor with a deformable part. Not presenting a vertical face might have reduced the deceration, but only by having the car go further under the tractor.

[tristancliffe]

I don't think it was the deceleration of the car that caused his injuries, but his helmet striking the side of the tractor causing a localised (head) change of velocity in a very short amount of time. Not only high g (which isn't all that bad), but high jerk (rate of change of acceleration).

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

I don't think it was the deceleration of the car that caused his injuries, but his helmet striking the side of the tractor causing a localised (head) change of velocity in a very short amount of time. Not only high g (which isn't all that bad), but high jerk (rate of change of acceleration).

A diffuse axonal injury, which is what Jules Bianchi sustained, is consistent with the deceleration of the car. I've seen the crash footage and it's hard to tell if his helmet hit the tractor. I think if it had, his injuries would have been much worse, if not instantly fatal.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

I don't think it was the deceleration of the car that caused his injuries, but his helmet striking the side of the tractor causing a localised (head) change of velocity in a very short amount of time. Not only high g (which isn't all that bad), but high jerk (rate of change of acceleration).

The brain injury he has now and cause for concern is a secondary injury that affects the neuo connections within the brain. The bleed within the brain (causing pressure between the brain and skull) caused by a sharp jolt or smack was operated on immediately on admittance to hospital and was successful. The secondary injury is caused by movement of the brain within the skull and is consistent with high deceleration.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

What about something like the high front roll bar on the March 782's?.Gives some frontal protection,in conjuctuction with the cockpit windscscreen.
Current F1 design with the flat front nose theres nothing stopping something like a tyre from smacking the driver square in the face.

What would be principally wrong about one-seater prototypes?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

What would be principally wrong about one-seater prototypes?

They aren't open wheel.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

They aren't open wheel.

Although Formula One has traditionally been an open-wheel series, closed-wheel cars are not totally unknown to the series - occasionally the dominate Mercedes-Benz W196 had its wheel covered.
I do think allowing covered wheels would have a positive effect on Formula One's road relevance as well.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Although Formula One has traditionally been an open-wheel series, closed-wheel cars are not totally unknown to the series - occasionally the dominate Mercedes-Benz W196 had its wheel covered.
I do think allowing covered wheels would have a positive effect on Formula One's road relevance as well.

Has F1 ever been road relevant? Despite the Nerfbars, which have been rather inaffective, IndyCar has managed to retain the open wheel element.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Has F1 ever been road relevant?

Formula One have been relevant in the past, have become relevant since the start of this year but could still unlock more potential in that respect.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Formula One have been relevant in the past, have become relevant since the start of this year but could still unlock more potential in that respect.

I don't think it ever was, though I would say road cars have benefitted from some of the spin offs from F1 but this hasn't got much to do with closed cockpits.

[Pingguest]

It is certain indeed that Formula One has not been road relevant when it comes to aerodynamics, as closed-wheel cars with enclosed cockpits are banned.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

In what is supposed to be a constructor’s championship for uniquely designed cars, we already have many standard components and constructors’ buying bits of each other’s designs such as gearboxes. So why not have a common design of canopied safety Cell/Tub.

So here’s my thinking …feel free to shoot it down.

The FIA, FOM, and the top designers from each team, get together with a couple of Aerospace companies and come up with a couple of designs for a generic tub/safety cell that incorporates a closed canopy.

The idea being that this generic design could be built by the individual constructors or a number of constructors and sold to the lesser constructors. This would then be the basis for each to build the remainder of their cars around.

I would suggest 2 design options,

Firstly, something that would appear to be a minimal adaptation, (though obviously completely new) of what the current cars look like.

Secondly, something that would allow a wider larger cockpit area that could incorporate constructor designed or OTS Display screens/HUD, whilst still within the current “look” of a formula car. What data is available on the HUD/data screens could be controlled limited by the Regs.

For each design there would have to be a 2 escape options, offered. Ultimately only one would be incorporated in a car. The tub could also have mandated vents for airflow within the cockpit.

Based on these Tubs the Constructors would produce artwork showing what the cars would look like built up from each of these. The Artwork would be aerodynamically generic with perhaps different nose positions.

The FIA/FOM/Constructors and any other relevant parties sit down and decide on the way forward with something tangible in front of them.

There would obviously have to be massive regulation changes....

Visible and not so visible things relating to the roll hoop and escape mechanisms
The total width of the car would likely increase.
Given the weight of the canopy and associated equipment there would need to be an increase in overall weight. (This could sensibly allow the drivers look more natural and less like skeletons in race suits.)
As the cars would have that extra weight, consider different rim and tyre dimensions, possibly redefining the area where the suspension mounts are.
There would be a million other minor details that would no doubt need adjusted, to cope with what an enclosed canopy does to the air around the car.

Whilst the extra weight for no extra power will slow the cars down, there would no doubt be aero advantages and disadvantages of both options outlined, so there would be massive scope for the aerodynamics folks within the all of the constructors to still produce their unique looking cars.

[Casper]

What about the systems needed to enable the enclosure to be successful? Ask the sports car guys what has to be done to keep the driver cool enough in a covered cockpit. Then what happens if it rains, wipers and keeping the cockpit cover clear of misting in what is a very humid environment need to be installed. Anyone can enclose the cockpit, that is the easy part, getting the support systems in is going to be a little bit more of a problem.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

And that's where the discussions with the Aerospace companies come in...Cockpits aren't new to them, they know how to deal with cockpit temperature and humidity and yes they even know how to deal with rain too.

[JeremySmith]

So these are open wheel *race* cars.... A closed cockpit would have saved Massa being hit in the head although he might have had a major accident if it had hit the cockpit anyway..

With Jules it would have made no difference at all....