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Old 3 Jan 2007, 21:37 (Ref:1805559)   #1
Matt
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ST vs. S2000

Hello, I love Touring Cars, and Watch V8 Supercars and SPEED World Chalenge at everytime I can, neither of which run on S2000 rules. I was wondering, what exactly ARE the S2000 rules, and how do they relate to the ST rules(arguably the best Touring Car rules ever). Also, in a head to head race, who would win, an ST, or S2000 ruled car?
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Old 3 Jan 2007, 22:28 (Ref:1805613)   #2
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You can find the S2000 rules in detail here.

The S2000 rules are a bit more restrictive on how much you are allowed to modify in the cars, like in the engine, suspensionparts, etc. It might reduce some costs, but on the other hand making it more and more difficult to make the cars even. In ST it was very free within a lot of areas when it comes to modifying, that made the cars more even. Manufacturers with cars which in their base constructions had a disadvantage compared to the other cars were able to modify it and get to the same level. Etc. One could write an whole essay about it all...

S2000 is more restrictive on some of the areas, as said, which some argue has forced the WTCC-organisation to make individual adjustments to some cars to make them more even. Something that never was made within Super Touring.

As for an head to head race the ST car would most likely win. More power, bigger wheels, more modified suspension, etc.
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Old 5 Jan 2007, 20:03 (Ref:1807729)   #3
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S2000 rules are basically an extension of the super production rules (produced in 2000!). The car is therefore based on the production varient and as such must use production dimensions and mounting points for suspension arms, engine mounting etc. S2000 allowed the use of carbon front wings, rear spoiler, different front and rear bumper (carbon), larger brakes etc.

With the STW rules you could move suspension mounting points, design your own arms, axle systems, move the engine, modified bodywork, center lock wheels, twin calipers on the brakes (water cooled) plastic windows, move the tunnel, move the pedals back, extend the steering column, use different materials on the doors/bodywork etc etc.
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Old 7 Jan 2007, 20:43 (Ref:1809063)   #4
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Speed wise, the ST would win by a country mile. I imagine they would be a good 5 or so seconds faster over a single lap.

This is my only real grievance with S2000, the cars don't look *fast*.
They could solve this by slightly modifying the rules by doing the following...

- Fitting slightly wider tyres (faster around corners)
- Increasing the rev limit by 1000rpm (faster in a straight line)
- Reducing the overall minimum weights by a specified amount (100-200kg?) (Faster in a straight line and corners)
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Old 8 Jan 2007, 00:12 (Ref:1809194)   #5
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Originally Posted by The Monster
Speed wise, the ST would win by a country mile. I imagine they would be a good 5 or so seconds faster over a single lap.

This is my only real grievance with S2000, the cars don't look *fast*.
They could solve this by slightly modifying the rules by doing the following...

- Fitting slightly wider tyres (faster around corners)
- Increasing the rev limit by 1000rpm (faster in a straight line)
- Reducing the overall minimum weights by a specified amount (100-200kg?) (Faster in a straight line and corners)
This looks fairly fast to me!

Admittedly, ST cars did look more 'mean' with lower ride heights and sunken wheel arches. It has taken me some time to get used to S2000 now, but it's become a universal format that works, unlike ST which was allowed to escalate ultimately to it's own death.
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Old 8 Jan 2007, 00:25 (Ref:1809199)   #6
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Only the name on the back makes it look fast.
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Old 8 Jan 2007, 10:10 (Ref:1809405)   #7
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Originally Posted by The Monster
Speed wise, the ST would win by a country mile. I imagine they would be a good 5 or so seconds faster over a single lap.

This is my only real grievance with S2000, the cars don't look *fast*.
They could solve this by slightly modifying the rules by doing the following...

- Fitting slightly wider tyres (faster around corners)
- Increasing the rev limit by 1000rpm (faster in a straight line)
- Reducing the overall minimum weights by a specified amount (100-200kg?) (Faster in a straight line and corners)
ST cars were faster on all tracks, but the difference differed from track to track. On some tracks, like Donington the S2000 cars were only about 2-3 seconds behind while on Thruxton they were 5-6 seconds behind, if we take BTCC as an example.

As for changing S2000:

Fitting wider tyres is the wrong way around. That would make the cars go even more unspectacular around a corner. Their wide tyres, for the HP ammount, is a problem. I've spoken to several S2000-drivers who feel the corner speeds are to high compared to their straightline speed/hp, they just throw their cars in to the corners.

Increasing revvlimit could be one way, but that could give some an unfair advantage since and increase costs too much. Perhaps increasing the engine size? It is a difficult chapter...

What we need are reduced costs and more spectacular racing.
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Old 8 Jan 2007, 14:57 (Ref:1809677)   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMeissner
ST cars were faster on all tracks, but the difference differed from track to track. On some tracks, like Donington the S2000 cars were only about 2-3 seconds behind while on Thruxton they were 5-6 seconds behind, if we take BTCC as an example.

As for changing S2000:

Fitting wider tyres is the wrong way around. That would make the cars go even more unspectacular around a corner. Their wide tyres, for the HP ammount, is a problem. I've spoken to several S2000-drivers who feel the corner speeds are to high compared to their straightline speed/hp, they just throw their cars in to the corners.

Increasing revvlimit could be one way, but that could give some an unfair advantage since and increase costs too much. Perhaps increasing the engine size? It is a difficult chapter...

What we need are reduced costs and more spectacular racing.
I think mandating smaller brakes and a possible increase in engine cc to either 2.2 or 2.5L to give more power.

Many 2L engines could be bore out to 2.2L (unless of course they are already derived from say a 1.8L in which case its a problem).
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Old 9 Jan 2007, 01:39 (Ref:1810092)   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Monster
This is my only real grievance with S2000, the cars don't look *fast*.
They could solve this by slightly modifying the rules by doing the following...

- Fitting slightly wider tyres (faster around corners)
- Increasing the rev limit by 1000rpm (faster in a straight line)
- Reducing the overall minimum weights by a specified amount (100-200kg?) (Faster in a straight line and corners)
Could they safely decrease veh weight? That would yield better performance without the added expense of trying to wring more power with add'l 1000rpm?

Somehow 2L is a nice looking number than 2.2L. 2.5 would make the cars a bit too powerful for their own good?
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Old 9 Jan 2007, 13:00 (Ref:1810361)   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndySpeed
This looks fairly fast to me!

Admittedly, ST cars did look more 'mean' with lower ride heights and sunken wheel arches. It has taken me some time to get used to S2000 now, but it's become a universal format that works, unlike ST which was allowed to escalate ultimately to it's own death.
I don't think that was a Super Touring problem but rather a manufacturer problem. Costs are increasing with S2000 too, as manufacturers put more and more money into it.

Escalating costs is one of the big problems with touring car racing and I don't know if there is an universal fix to it.

I don't know or eve nargue that it would be a soltion. But I would like to see a FIA-controlled touring car regulation that would be "worldwide" i:e european (NASCAR and V8 Supercar have their own success and recipe). It would be something like:
RWD
3 litre six cylindered turbocharged engines 400 BHP
chassi

a bit like a "smaller DTM" regulation wherein different manufacturers could build and develop their cars like in DTM. Maybe that could be as spectacular as DTM is and Group A was and still be cheap and also have the advantage of a wide market with racingseries with the same regulations in several countries and a WTCC-series.
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Old 9 Jan 2007, 13:07 (Ref:1810364)   #11
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BTC-Touring regulations would have done a much better job at controlling costs. Alas BMW forced the FIA to switch from a formulae very close to BTC-Touring (to which the first Volvo S60 was built) to a more production based, but also more expensive regulatons.

Check out Ian Harrison's views on Super 2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Harrison
The bottom line is that we have gone from a really, really strong set of technical regulations to a really weak set of technical regulations. The S2000 regulations, technically, are appalling compared to the BTCC regulations, but it is what we have got and we have to make the most of it. There is a lot of work, it is a lot more involved and a lot more expensive, and the guys have been burning the midnight oil since August in the drawing office here to try and make head or tail of the rules. The cars are more complicated, more expensive to build and more time consuming, which are basically all the things that you don't want in touring cars."
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Old 9 Jan 2007, 15:19 (Ref:1810450)   #12
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If only the BTC got rid of those ridiculously out of proportion rear wings the cars might have looked good.
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Old 9 Jan 2007, 15:44 (Ref:1810467)   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Monster
If only the BTC got rid of those ridiculously out of proportion rear wings the cars might have looked good.
That and if some of the teams actually put effort into their liveries!

In relation to Ola's post about costs:

When a marque such as BMW or even the VW/Audi-owned Seat is involved in top-level touring car racing, money is always going to be a factor. The rules allow each team to research ways to make their car fastest, and if the regulations shut off one area of development, the manufacturer will simply pour money into other areas to ensure their car is fastest.

Does anyone know how much an S2000 car cost to build and run for a year when the rules were first introduced as to how much it costs today?
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Old 13 Jan 2007, 18:22 (Ref:1814424)   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa Fan
BTC-Touring regulations would have done a much better job at controlling costs. Alas BMW forced the FIA to switch from a formulae very close to BTC-Touring (to which the first Volvo S60 was built) to a more production based, but also more expensive regulatons.

Check out Ian Harrison's views on Super 2000
Harrison is whining because his team - unlike SEAT - chose to use BTC-T until the end of last year.

IMO we should have keeped the 2006 situation (with both) until the start of 2008 when they should have banned BTC-T's for good.
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Old 15 Jan 2007, 03:18 (Ref:1815433)   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duke_toaster
Harrison is whining because his team - unlike SEAT - chose to use BTC-T until the end of last year.

IMO we should have keeped the 2006 situation (with both) until the start of 2008 when they should have banned BTC-T's for good.
OTOH, I think VXR was wise to take the extra time to develop the car before racing it. BMW delayed the release of the E90 touring car by one year?

Last edited by kmchow; 15 Jan 2007 at 03:20.
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Old 15 Jan 2007, 09:14 (Ref:1815551)   #16
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I don't know if they have been developing a lot at VXR. They had enough problems getting the Astra at speed, and they only solved that at the final races of the season. I am afraid that Seat walks away with the manufacturerstitle, and that We have to wait till next year for a good fight. OTOH Giovanardi is a great driver, when he is in a good shape he might win some races, even with a car that is not the best of the field.
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Old 16 Jan 2007, 04:25 (Ref:1816204)   #17
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what are the rules on engines for S2000 ??
Just a question as is it based on a production engine of the manufacture ??
Or is it a bespoke 2 litre ?
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Old 25 Jan 2007, 02:10 (Ref:1825342)   #18
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Another thing is that S2000's fuel tanks are much smaller than ST, meaning the races are much shorter.

They only do like 9 laps in one race in Macau nowadays. ST used to do at least 12 laps per race if I remember right. Given the likelihood of crashes and safety car periods, we only get like 5 or 6 laps of racing per race and 12 laps total for the weekend if we are lucky. Mind you the first time S2000 visited Macau we only got 8 lap races...
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Old 25 Jan 2007, 02:53 (Ref:1825353)   #19
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Isn't that also because the races are timed to 20min?
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Old 25 Jan 2007, 06:44 (Ref:1825395)   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asa
Another thing is that S2000's fuel tanks are much smaller than ST, meaning the races are much shorter.

They only do like 9 laps in one race in Macau nowadays. ST used to do at least 12 laps per race if I remember right. Given the likelihood of crashes and safety car periods, we only get like 5 or 6 laps of racing per race and 12 laps total for the weekend if we are lucky. Mind you the first time S2000 visited Macau we only got 8 lap races...
The races are limited to 50km in the WTCC. Series like the STCC with its 40-minute races proves that the cars can indeed go that distance. Secondly, they do add laps (to a certain level) when the SC is brought out.
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Old 25 Jan 2007, 08:40 (Ref:1825436)   #21
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In STCC they have bigger fuel tanks.
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Old 29 Jan 2007, 08:57 (Ref:1828371)   #22
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And not to forget that they have run endurance events like Nurburgring 24-hour with S2000 cars.

The fuel tanks in a S2000-car, as in every racingcar, is as large or small as it needs to be. If you only have to run for 50 km, you fit a small tank. If you need to run a 24-hour race you fit a large tank etc.
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Old 30 Jan 2007, 10:27 (Ref:1829288)   #23
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S-2000 is good, but IMO turbo schould be added, to raise power to 350-400 hp. Then races would be much more interesting and costs wouldn't change much.
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Old 30 Jan 2007, 11:14 (Ref:1829326)   #24
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400bhp through two front tires is a recipe for disaster.
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