Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Baltic Touring Car Championship Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Touring Car Racing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 2 Sep 2008, 20:52 (Ref:2280407)   #51
Bramzel
Veteran
 
Bramzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Netherlands
Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Posts: 3,153
Bramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed-King
I can't see BMW or Audi authorizing the use of their name on their car that has literarly ZERO connection to their roadcars.
Audi does that already with their DTM programme. Regarding BMW you're right: its the exact reason they're not participating in DTM.
Bramzel is offline  
Quote
Old 2 Sep 2008, 21:06 (Ref:2280417)   #52
mountainstar
Veteran
 
mountainstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Posts: 6,884
mountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead-Eye
The ALMS programme is controlled and funded by BMW North America, the WTCC programme from Munich I believe. So I doubt entering the ALMS will affect their involvement in touring cars, except maybe for a few drivers crossing over.
Understood all about the NA program. But I understand that BMW in europe is considering bailing on WTCC and going GT2 or perhaps going another direction. That isn't speculation, but actual rumor from within.
mountainstar is offline  
__________________
Wolverines!
Quote
Old 2 Sep 2008, 21:11 (Ref:2280421)   #53
Aslak Vind
Veteran
 
Aslak Vind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Denmark
Copenhagen
Posts: 1,589
Aslak Vind should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bramzel
Audi does that already with their DTM programme. Regarding BMW you're right: its the exact reason they're not participating in DTM.
It may be right on the strictly technical side, but the public sees an Audi A4 win at Brands Hatch. And as long as the marketing and imagerelated part of DTM works for them, it is an investment worth while.. Both for Audi and could be for BMW.

Exactly which relation has F1 with BMW´s roadcars..?

Zeeeeroooo

But the marketing works, as a carryover effect.
Aslak Vind is offline  
__________________
Le Mans Christian Bakkerud, Team Kolles
Formula Renault 2.0 NEC Mikkel Mac
DTC Martin Marrill, M-Sport
Quote
Old 2 Sep 2008, 21:12 (Ref:2280422)   #54
mountainstar
Veteran
 
mountainstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Posts: 6,884
mountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIRE
Getting bored with S2000? Not me. BTCC and WTCC are delivering still great racing.
I watch the BTCC, WTCC and the STCC and still can't get into it. I'd rather watch NZv8's or V8 Supercars or the DTM.
mountainstar is offline  
__________________
Wolverines!
Quote
Old 2 Sep 2008, 23:29 (Ref:2280503)   #55
Dead-Eye
Veteran
 
Dead-Eye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Estonia
Posts: 2,348
Dead-Eye should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDead-Eye should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslak Vind
It may be right on the strictly technical side, but the public sees an Audi A4 win at Brands Hatch. And as long as the marketing and imagerelated part of DTM works for them, it is an investment worth while.. Both for Audi and could be for BMW.

Exactly which relation has F1 with BMW´s roadcars..?

Zeeeeroooo

But the marketing works, as a carryover effect.
The problem isn't really relation to the road car but the fact that the factory doesn't really have much control about what is done. The A4 DTM is still an Audi (well, except for the engine ), just not an A4. The P&M silhouette would be a P&M car.
Dead-Eye is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Sep 2008, 00:00 (Ref:2280517)   #56
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead-Eye
The problem isn't really relation to the road car but the fact that the factory doesn't really have much control about what is done. The A4 DTM is still an Audi (well, except for the engine ), just not an A4. The P&M silhouette would be a P&M car.
That's what I wanted to say.
I think it's interesting to take a look at the manufacturers in Stockcar Brazil:
Chevrolet, Peugeot and Mitsubishi. None of those are premium companies like Audi or Merc. These are companies that don't have - at least for the Brazilian market - to prove their technical prowess and are allowed by the SCB-ruleset to take the technical aspects out of racing and turn the cars in fact into nothing more than motorized billboards for their product.
Speed-King is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Sep 2008, 07:45 (Ref:2280619)   #57
Bramzel
Veteran
 
Bramzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Netherlands
Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Posts: 3,153
Bramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
[quote=Aslak VindIt may be right on the strictly technical side, but the public sees an Audi A4 win at Brands Hatch. And as long as the marketing and imagerelated part of DTM works for them, it is an investment worth while.. Both for Audi and could be for BMW. [/quote]

You don't have to explain the marketing side to me, I know how it works BMW though doesn't like DTM because the cars aren't similar enough to the cars they're supposed to promote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslak Vind
Exactly which relation has F1 with BMW´s roadcars..?

Zeeeeroooo
None indeed, its the only exception to their own 'rule'. I would assume because of the whole image thing, but I don't know this for sure.
Bramzel is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Sep 2008, 22:59 (Ref:2281239)   #58
stedevil
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Sweden
Posts: 1,545
stedevil has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed-King
... I guess that at any race event with a somewhat decent crowd, the spectators' journeys to the track produce several times more CO2 than the actual racing. So in the end there's no big difference between a race run on conventional fuel and one run on ethanol. I have absolutely no problem with going green, but not if the sport on track is the victim. If it can be done without unreasonable additional costs I'm all for it.

Göteborg Cityrace in STCC this year was fully environmentally compensated. The compensations was 8% for the racecars/teams/etc and 92% for the visiting crowds. Also included in the ticket price was free local transportations (buses/trams/etc), so no need to take the car to the track.

Quote:
The question what implications this will have on the Danish and European racing scene is interesting enough!
If the DTC managment is deciding to drop S2000 Im hoping this as a side effect will spur the creation of an Scandinavian TCC, with drivers and races from/in Sweden-Norway-Denmark. That would make for one really good championship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainstar
I think it's plenty moral to run V8's. They are loud, stinky, fast engines. Motor Racing is about having fun and enjoying life.
Loud, stincky and fast, all of that can be had even with eg E85. Properly adjusted, a petrol engine running on E85 GAINS in horsepower...

http://autospider.blogspot.com/2007/...xr-flower.html

Quote:
Bovine emissions more lethal than 20 V8's going around a track.
Bovine has always exsisted, it's when you add burning of oil and gas that's been buried in the ground for millenia that you shift the balance.

Quote:
One cow puts out 1000 liters of methane each day...
...and in general it's is amazingly stupid that we don't collect these gases and use it as fuel. If farmers in China can cook, heat and light their homes on the methane their animals produce, how come the western world can't? Are we really that far behind a chinese farmer technically?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslak Vind
Exactly which relation has F1 with BMW´s roadcars..?

Zeeeeroooo
Additionally, a F1 car doesn't try to make itself look like something it isn't. That is why I think BMW don't have a problem participating in F1, they are not "fooling" a viewer that you can buy that car at your local BMW dealer.

Last edited by stedevil; 3 Sep 2008 at 23:03.
stedevil is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Sep 2008, 23:13 (Ref:2281249)   #59
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by stedevil

Bovine has always exsisted, it's when you add burning of oil and gas that's been buried in the ground for millenia that you shift the balance.
Although one must admit that the large-scale cattle-raising necessary for our meat-heavy diet is an invention of the late 19th and 20th century.
Quote:
If the DTC managment is deciding to drop S2000 Im hoping this as a side effect will spur the creation of an Scandinavian TCC, with drivers and races from/in Sweden-Norway-Denmark. That would make for one really good championship.
Could be the best of both worlds, eh? Denmark getting a spectacular V8-championship and Scandinavia getting finally a full-grid-touringcar series that will truely rival BTCC.

My cynicism tells me, though, that if Denmark indeed drops S2000 only very few teams will cross over to STCC and the V8-championship will be flop with weak grids.

I really hope, though, that the V8-championship gets off the ground, as some day S2000 will indeed have run its course - maybe the writings already on the wall, maybe they can still turn it around to get another few years out of that ruleset- and then it'll be good to already have some proven alternatives.

Last edited by Speed-King; 3 Sep 2008 at 23:19.
Speed-King is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Sep 2008, 23:18 (Ref:2281252)   #60
stedevil
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Sweden
Posts: 1,545
stedevil has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Pink
I don't really think the main thing is that the cars are fast, but that they LOOK fast. Todays S2000 cars does pretty decent times around the circuits but for the average person it looks like everyone could do it.

As I said earlier higher power to grip ratio = exciting racing for everyone = more interest from spectators = more interest from manufacturers.

That´s my firm belief and I think it would be quite possible for, for example, DTC and STCC to come up with something like this without it becoming to expensive.
I have 1 big concern with your "higher power to grip ratio" formula, how do you intend to balance F/RWD cars relative each other? If the cars become "grip limited" instead of "engine limited" the FWD cars will chew through their tires in an instant.
stedevil is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Sep 2008, 23:43 (Ref:2281271)   #61
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by stedevil
I have 1 big concern with your "higher power to grip ratio" formula, how do you intend to balance F/RWD cars relative each other? If the cars become "grip limited" instead of "engine limited" the FWD cars will chew through their tires in an instant.
There are three possible solutions:
1) Make all cars RWD
2) Make the cars super-leightweight, so they don't need absurdly high amounts of power to achieve a nice power/weight ratio.
Both solutions may be more feasible with (semi-)tubeframe cars.
If I remember correctly most of the 2l-Gr.5 cars from the late 70s weighted significantly below 800kg.

3) Give the cars ridiculously little aero-parts, to reduce grip. If it was up to me, I'd ban all winged profiles and rather see spoilers like in pre-COT-NASCAR in touring car racing. I'd partially make up for it with some extra wide tires (and wheelarches!) however

Last edited by Speed-King; 3 Sep 2008 at 23:45.
Speed-King is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Sep 2008, 23:48 (Ref:2281274)   #62
stedevil
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Sweden
Posts: 1,545
stedevil has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed-King
Although one must admit that the large-scale cattle-raising necessary for our meat-heavy diet is an invention of the late 19th and 20th century.
It is, but in that time we have also killed off almost all the free range grazers in the world as well as the predators that used to live on them. So instead of the wolf/tiger/lion eating the moose/bison/deer we instead have humans eating cows and sheep. Sure, it would be better if we ate more vegies, pork and birds, but grazers releasing greenhouse gases that new grass growing "recycled" again has been going on since before man first stood on his hind legs.

Quote:
Could be the best of both worlds, eh? Denmark getting a spectacular V8-championship and Scandinavia getting finally a full-grid-touringcar series that will truely rival BTCC.

My cynicism tells me, though, that if Denmark indeed drops S2000 only very few teams will cross over to STCC and the V8-championship will be flop with weak grids.
We would only need few more teams to "fill up the grids" though. Most tracks we have here unfortunately are too short and twisty to fit much more than 25-30 cars without things getting too messy. So these "slightly larger than a kart track" tracks we have sort of fit well with smaller grids. :P

Quote:
...
maybe they can still turn it around to get another few years out of that ruleset- and then it'll be good to already have some proven alternatives.
I really think forcing 1-2 medium distance races (1h+) per season would force everybody to build more sturdy racecars that didnt need to change so many expensive parts so often. Would do a lot cost savings wise.
stedevil is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2008, 00:01 (Ref:2281280)   #63
stedevil
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Sweden
Posts: 1,545
stedevil has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed-King
There are three possible solutions:
1) Make all cars RWD
You just excluded 95% of todays modern cars that would fit the "real cars racing" idea.

Quote:
2) Make the cars super-leightweight, so they don't need absurdly high amounts of power to achieve a nice power/weight ratio.
Again, good idea, but doesn't suit the slot for "real cars racing".


Quote:
3) Give the cars ridiculously little aero-parts, to reduce grip. If it was up to me, I'd ban all winged profiles and rather see spoilers like in pre-COT-NASCAR in touring car racing. I'd partially make up for it with some extra wide tires (and wheelarches!) however
Wider tires and less aero grip still wouldn't tackle the inherent problem of a FWD car chewing through the rubber. In a situation were the engine is not the limiting factor, a RWD will always be able to push it's rubber much harder since it divides the load more evenly across all 4 tires.
Or are you suggesting wider tires should be allowed for FWD cars relative RWD cars?
stedevil is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2008, 00:19 (Ref:2281286)   #64
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by stedevil
You just excluded 95% of todays modern cars that would fit the "real cars racing" idea
Again, good idea, but doesn't suit the slot for "real cars racing".
The question is: Do people care? DTM success in spite of the million problems the series is facing suggests, that they don't. At least not here in Germany.
The problem with "real cars" is that these cars are severly compromised, when it comes to their adoptability for racing, as they are built with everyday-useability in mind, with racing only being an afterthought. This is absolutely understandable and okay for me, after all, who would want to buy a severly compromised roadcar, just because it is a good racecar in the hands of an Andy Priaulx?
And in a way, this is the very nature of touring car racing, i.e. a contest to decide which roadcar is the fastest, but on the other hand, this increases the developement costs for competitive "real" racing cars significantly. Especially with the very restrictive rulesets that we have in most series today.
And if people don't care - is it really worth it? "Real Cars- Real Racing" is a nice slogan, but is it really feasible in todays racing world?


Quote:
Wider tires and less aero grip still wouldn't tackle the inherent problem of a FWD car chewing through the rubber. In a situation were the engine is not the limiting factor, a RWD will always be able to push it's rubber much harder since it divides the load more evenly across all 4 tires.
Or are you suggesting wider tires should be allowed for FWD cars relative RWD cars?
Reminds me of an interesting article I read some days ago: Back in the late 80s a Dodge team in IMSA-GTU built two tubeframe-Daytonas, one FWD and one RWD. Both cars used the same tyres, only the FWD car used the wider tires, that the RWD car had on the rear-wheels, on the front wheels.
Maybe a setup like that would work.

Last edited by Speed-King; 4 Sep 2008 at 00:22.
Speed-King is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Sep 2008, 03:26 (Ref:2281340)   #65
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
I just re-read what I wrote in the post above, I left a few bits out and somehow it sounds a bit harsher than I wanted it to sound initially.

Quote:
And in a way, this is the very nature of touring car racing, i.e. a contest to decide which roadcar is the fastest, but on the other hand, this increases the developement costs for competitive "real" racing cars significantly. Especially with the very restrictive rulesets that we have in most series today.
Forgot to add: Of course, the FIA tries to curb the rising costs through special dispensations and weight changes, but this creates all the politics that can really take the fun out of racing.

I still think that S2000 is head and shoulders above the current DTM, as the grids are decent and the racing is mostly good and at times great, but somehow I begin to get bored with the neverending weight-discussions, the (relative) lack of variety and the rather unimaginative cars.
That's why I'd really like to see a series for spectacular, yet simple tubeframe cars with the great racing we see in WTCC, but without the the endless politics.

I've recently watched some Trans/Am races from the 80s on youtube, and I think this really was touring car racing at its best. Spectacular and powerful cars, a wide variety of makes and models, huge fields and great racing.
Speed-King is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Sep 2008, 23:05 (Ref:2287605)   #66
JAG
Veteran
 
JAG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
England
Posts: 10,500
JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I was a huge touring car fan in the 80's and 90's, but despair at the state it's in today.

S2000 cars are a disaster, they look and sound awful, are unspectaclar and too slow.

DTM cars don't even resemble road going supercars, nevermind mid to high end saloons.

Is it really so difficult to come up with a cost effective but spectacular touring car formula.

Cars must closely resemble the road car model, with WRC like modifications to wheel arches and aero.

Allow FWD and RWD with 320bhp+ 2l turbo engines.

Super Touring cars were putting out 320bhp+ in the later years while 2l kitcars such as the Citroen Xsara and Peugeot 306 Maxi put out even more, AND were competive on rough tarmac roads, even in damp conditions, with 4wd WRC cars.

DTM '88-'92 is what touring cars should be like.



JAG is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Sep 2008, 01:45 (Ref:2287673)   #67
Aslak Vind
Veteran
 
Aslak Vind's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Denmark
Copenhagen
Posts: 1,589
Aslak Vind should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Super Touring cars were putting out 320bhp+ in the later years while 2l kitcars such as the Citroen Xsara and Peugeot 306 Maxi put out even more, AND were competive on rough tarmac roads, even in damp conditions, with 4wd WRC cars.
I agree, you are right!

This would be the future..

Howwever, the STW pumped out +400 at 11.000 o/min
Aslak Vind is offline  
__________________
Le Mans Christian Bakkerud, Team Kolles
Formula Renault 2.0 NEC Mikkel Mac
DTC Martin Marrill, M-Sport
Quote
Old 12 Sep 2008, 08:17 (Ref:2287835)   #68
Bramzel
Veteran
 
Bramzel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Netherlands
Apeldoorn, The Netherlands
Posts: 3,153
Bramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
DTM '88-'92 is what touring cars should be like.
Agreed 100%.
Bramzel is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Sep 2008, 11:06 (Ref:2287954)   #69
werner
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
Netherlands
Rotterdam, the Netherlands
Posts: 1,706
werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aslak Vind
I agree, you are right!

This would be the future..

Howwever, the STW pumped out +400 at 11.000 o/min
I thought there was a revlimit at 8500rpm?
werner is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Sep 2008, 11:23 (Ref:2287963)   #70
werner
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
Netherlands
Rotterdam, the Netherlands
Posts: 1,706
werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
ISuper Touring cars were putting out 320bhp+ in the later years while 2l kitcars such as the Citroen Xsara and Peugeot 306 Maxi put out even more, AND were competive on rough tarmac roads, even in damp conditions, with 4wd WRC cars.
That wa offcourse because they were much lighter. But that is something that can be done today. And it is done. It only leads to a lot of political mayhem, as it did those days to BTW. The WRC-teams where véry unhappy that the Peugeots drove in the head of the field in some rally's.
werner is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Sep 2008, 11:35 (Ref:2287973)   #71
werner
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2006
Netherlands
Rotterdam, the Netherlands
Posts: 1,706
werner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridwerner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
For an example look at this youtube-film If you go to a bit over 4 min. there are short interviews with Colin McRae and David Richardsof Subaru.
werner is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2008, 02:08 (Ref:2288583)   #72
gttouring
Veteran
 
gttouring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location:
USB 3.0
Posts: 4,536
gttouring should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
"DTM '88-'92 is what touring cars should be like."

how true how true

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-R665bquMg
how many races are this good?
gttouring is offline  
__________________
SuperTrucks rule- end of story.
Listen to my ramblings! Follow my twitter @davidAET
I am shameless ...
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2008, 02:09 (Ref:2288585)   #73
gttouring
Veteran
 
gttouring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location:
USB 3.0
Posts: 4,536
gttouring should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
"DTM '88-'92 is what touring cars should be like."

how true how true

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-R665bquMg
how many races are this good?
gttouring is offline  
__________________
SuperTrucks rule- end of story.
Listen to my ramblings! Follow my twitter @davidAET
I am shameless ...
Quote
Old 13 Sep 2008, 02:09 (Ref:2288586)   #74
gttouring
Veteran
 
gttouring's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location:
USB 3.0
Posts: 4,536
gttouring should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
"DTM '88-'92 is what touring cars should be like."

how true how true

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-R665bquMg
how many races are this good?

and not just in the wet- so what was wrong with this formula?
gttouring is offline  
__________________
SuperTrucks rule- end of story.
Listen to my ramblings! Follow my twitter @davidAET
I am shameless ...
Quote
Old 16 Sep 2008, 22:46 (Ref:2292151)   #75
Speed-King
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location:
Wuerzburg,Germany
Posts: 7,325
Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!Speed-King has a real shot at the podium!
Any updates on the future of the DTC??
Speed-King is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Franchitti being replaced? Bluewolf Sportscar & GT Racing 9 12 Sep 2007 18:11
Cotman Being Replaced! macdaddy ChampCar World Series 14 5 Mar 2006 21:36
Now that he has been replaced... Fish_Flake ChampCar World Series 29 24 Jul 2003 20:45
VIP Replaced Scott The Tool Man Australasian Touring Cars. 9 2 Aug 2002 16:47
Who should be replaced? steve nielsen Formula One 29 28 Apr 2002 20:00


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.