[Driver] Vettel didn't deserve to win the championship - Discuss

[Mr V]

Whatever

[jab]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Schumacher was/is a brilliant driver and he'd do things in the car that would leave me dumbstruck, but this season has showed that had he not had a car that was exactly to his liking he wouldn't have achieved the success that he did!

I'd argue that it's the same for all drivers, though

I'd be interested to see Vettel in a car now that wasn't designed by Adrian Newey, for instance

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by jab

I'd argue that it's the same for all drivers, though

I'd be interested to see Vettel in a car now that wasn't designed by Adrian Newey, for instance

F1 has always been about the car.
However as the sport has become even more competitive between the teams the car has become ever more important.

The emphasis on aero development and downforce exaggerates the difference between the cars even more.

My own belief is that there are six or seven drivers out there who were not contenders but could have been contenders had their teams been running a Red Bull.

[Flyin Ryan]

He deserves it more than Button did last year in my opinion.

Although this is auto racing, what does deserve have to deal with any outcome in a race or championship?

[chillibowl]

haha. exactly. deserves got nothing to do with it.!

i treated this race as a sudden death playoff. the relevant protagonists had all done enough to get to into position to have a chance for glory and that was as good as an explanation/background as i needed for the final round.

that Vettel did what he had to on the final day actually makes this even more special for me because he went toe to toe with some real hard core win at all cost type racers and came out on top.

also he scored more points than anyone else...in case that point has not been mentioned yet.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Not sure that is right? Kimi won the first round in Aus and i think finished a couple of podiums to back it up. He was obviously leading after Australia and I think for the few GPs after.

Again, I'm no Vettel fan, but I see him as a substantially more deserving champion than Raikkonen was.....

[strider]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

My own belief is that there are six or seven drivers out there who were not contenders but could have been contenders had their teams been running a Red Bull.

Who are thinking of?

Kubica and Rosberg come to mind immediately and people around here are bound to include Schumacher, but after that?

[SennaTheGreat]

Originally Posted by strider

Who are thinking of?

Kubica and Rosberg come to mind immediately and people around here are bound to include Schumacher, but after that?

Ruben's has gotta be on there

[jab]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

F1 has always been about the car.
However as the sport has become even more competitive between the teams the car has become ever more important.

The emphasis on aero development and downforce exaggerates the difference between the cars even more.

My own belief is that there are six or seven drivers out there who were not contenders but could have been contenders had their teams been running a Red Bull.

I think you could probably have argued that after last year. Last year re-emphasised the importance of the car in F1. We saw Button win loads of races and the title, we saw Webber and Rubens winning races, we saw Fisichella on pole and Sutil on the front row, and we saw the "best" drivers make little impact for much of the season in poor cars

However, I think this year re-emphasised the importance of the driver. With 3 races to go, we had Mark Webber, a driver who had gone up in most people's estimations since the beginning of 2009 and was virtually breaking in to the "top tier" of drivers, on top of the standings. If it was all car, surely he would've cruised to the title. But he didn't. And it was the acknowledged 3 best drivers in the field (with the exception of Kubica, who never had the car anyway) who rose to the top

If anything, it re-establishes the pre-2009 general view that the great really are a class apart from the good. But this time, it's not necessarily in raw speed, but in terms of mental strength, being able to deliver when it counts. Webber proved this year that he's only a tiny fraction behind Vettel in one lap pace. Where he lost it was being able to deliver his maximum every weekend, especially at the end. That's where their true advantage of the best drivers is

[Teretonga]

I didn't say it was all car.
I said the car was more important than ever before.
And I wasn't commenting on the relative merits of the drivers.

The cars are now quite even in terms of power and handling generally. However qualifying this year has proven that around a lap one car is probably superior to the others. The others are close but not able to get that one or two tenths to close-generally- the circuits can make a difference.

However in a race the rules and the design emphasis makes getting close to one another quite difficult to the detriment of passing and the ability to race wheel to wheel. Hence the processional racing. That has become more of an issue in the past as F1 has progressed to become more a entertainment business than a sport.

My point was that there are several drivers in the field, outside the contenders, who had they had a Red Bull could have been able to be contenders. Kubica, Glock, Kovalainen, Heidfeld, Barrichello, Kobyashi (?), Rosberg, Schmacher and maybe Sutil(?) all could have become title contenders had they been in a Red Bull.

The drivers may actually be a lot closer together than we realise but the differences in cars masks this.... and the relative inability (by car design) to over take.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by SennaTheGreat

Ruben's has gotta be on there

Not for me. Rubinho's had his day. Even in a Red Bull I don't think we would have seen Rubens in the fight for the WDC at Abu Dhabi......

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by strider

Who are thinking of?

Kubica and Rosberg come to mind immediately and people around here are bound to include Schumacher, but after that?

I don't think so about Rosberg. That car wasn't miserable, I think he lacks the last couple of tenths to get it to the top of the podium. That's my completely uneducated opinion.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Not for me. Rubinho's had his day. Even in a Red Bull I don't think we would have seen Rubens in the fight for the WDC at Abu Dhabi......

I was talking about across the season, not just Abu Dhabi.
While I may have been generous with some drivers (Kovalainen, Glock, Schumacher, Heidfeld, Sutil) Kubica, Rosberg, and I think Barrichello, and Kobyashi could have made very good use of it across a season.

Kobyashi would have been a revelation....

[Paradise City]

I think of Vettel, I think of Germany's answer to Nigel Mansell. The way the relaxed good humour quickly melts away into bad temper at any sign of duress isn't impressive. Like Mansell, he can dominate with a car with a clear advantage but is sometimes more flummoxed when he has a fight on his hands. The pole to win ratio doesn't flatter his temperment him either.

However, like Mansell he does deserve to be champion and deserves to be respected as a champion.

[Knowlesy]

But in terms of facial topiary...

[Paradise City]

Vettel should defintely sport an Olaf Manthey-type handlebar mustache.

Newey should have some input into its growth. If grown with maximum efficiency it could revolutionise F1 aeros for years to come!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by SennaTheGreat

Ruben's has gotta be on there

Rubens had the best car for the first half of last season and he couldn't get the job done, why should this season be any different?

[jedrinck]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I think of Vettel, I think of Germany's answer to Nigel Mansell. The way the relaxed good humour quickly melts away into bad temper at any sign of duress isn't impressive.

What do you mean? He is unsurpassed at smiling during interviews after retiring while in the lead. I actually thought it made him look like he was mentally disturbed at times, like he didn't care.