Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by dxk1

Everything you ever wanted to know about the Delta-wing project and then some from the man himself, Don Panoz: http://www.americanlemans.com/primary1.php?cat=news|16158

DK

Certainly an interesting article, in particular REAMS.

[knighty]

is the engine direction known for this project yet????.....I seem to remember reading 300bhp, using something like a 1.6/2.0 turbocharged I4......or will it be normally aspirated????.....surely an OEM/manufacturer must be interested in showcasing a downsized turbo engine, there are plenty around now pushing 300bhp, as they are replacing V6 and V8 engines in family cars with em.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by knighty

is the engine direction known for this project yet????.....I seem to remember reading 300bhp, using something like a 1.6/2.0 turbocharged I4......or will it be normally aspirated????.....surely an OEM/manufacturer must be interested in showcasing a downsized turbo engine, there are plenty around now pushing 300bhp, as they are replacing V6 and V8 engines in family cars with em.

I'm not sure that they have decided on an engine yet. Which to me is sort of troubling.

[JAG]

They're using a WRC engine which are manufactuer developed and bulletproof.

I believe the latest 1.6T's are direct injected.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

God I hate the Delta Wing

That was me when the first raised nosed Tyrell showed up. I think a proper F1, or any Open Wheel formula, should have it's nose sniffing the ground searching for the best line. I still think modern F1 cars look like Preying Mantiss's, but I can tolerate them. I think the DW will be like the Aston, if it's slow, then folks will point to that and say...'See! I was right.'
If the DW can hold it's own, then over time fewer and fewer folks will carp about it, til only old fogeys like me even remember what a 4 cornered car looked like. Or what a true PETROL SCREAMING engine sounded like.

dh

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

Or what a true PETROL SCREAMING engine sounded like.

dh

Cherish the V12 Aston for these last few races my friend, end of an era.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Certainly an interesting article, in particular REAMS.

I've always thought Carbon Fibre was a rather rigid item. When teams removed the rear deck to work on an engine bay issue, two guys would lift the deck and there would be no flex, even when they stood the deck piece up while the service went on.

But last spring at Sebring, the Highcroft Honda needed some service and the entire rear deck section was lifted away, with some considerable flexing of the piece. I knew the ARX cars went on a weight reduction program after the first year of development, but I don't recall seeing other Protos or Grand Am Uglies flex when the deck was lifted. I wonder if Wirth took the Carbon to as thin as possible and now constructers will need to examine other options for strength without weight gain. This REAMS stuff sounds like a low energy version carbon fibre.

dh

[joeb]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

This REAMS stuff sounds like a low energy version carbon fibre.

dh

I am quite interested to see if it works as advertised. I think Dr Don was saying it will dent, and not shatter like Carbon Fiber, so you can heat it up and bang out the pieces. If this technology takes off that would be a great contribution, regardless of how the DW does.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

I've always thought Carbon Fibre was a rather rigid item. When teams removed the rear deck to work on an engine bay issue, two guys would lift the deck and there would be no flex, even when they stood the deck piece up while the service went on.

But last spring at Sebring, the Highcroft Honda needed some service and the entire rear deck section was lifted away, with some considerable flexing of the piece. I knew the ARX cars went on a weight reduction program after the first year of development, but I don't recall seeing other Protos or Grand Am Uglies flex when the deck was lifted. I wonder if Wirth took the Carbon to as thin as possible and now constructers will need to examine other options for strength without weight gain. This REAMS stuff sounds like a low energy version carbon fibre.

dh

Engine covers are very flexible, regardless of being made from carbon fiber: the skin sections are typically little over 1/8" max in the areas with core and less than that in the areas without core. So there should be little surprise the typical engine cover has a good bit of flex. Wirth hasn't done anything special, have a better look up and down pit lane.

REAMs is Tegris, a woven plastic fiber cloth. It's a dry fabric and I hear very bad things about its usability as it has no tack thus won't stick to molds without a hell of a lot of consternation. I understand the plies are particularly thin requiring many layers in order to build up to typical section thickness. That it's cheaper per linear yard is rather meaningless: anyone in the composite industry knows costs are purely associated with labor hours. Thus if you're putting more time into layup (more plies) and finishing the piece on the back end you're loosing out in a bigger way. And if backed with carbon throw its recyclability out the window.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by JAG

They're using a WRC engine which are manufactuer developed and bulletproof.

I believe the latest 1.6T's are direct injected.

Many thanks JAG, in which case I guess the 1.6 Turbo WRC engine will come from either Ford, Citroen/Peugeot, VW, BMW......well that narrows it down a bit!.......I will keep my ears close to the floor, I'm sure its only a matter of time before a gem of news arrives.

300bhp and 500NM or torque should tick their box

[joeb]

there was a video of Duncan talking to the National Press Club the other day, and they had a clip of a Deltawing up on a lift. It is at 2:15 of this video. I think it might have been from the model they used for Indy, but maybe it is the new chassis in build?

edit: I looked at it again and I think it is Ben Bowlby and Dan Gurney looking at it, so that makes it seem more like it is a new chassis.

[gttouring]

Half the wieght of what an F1 car? Those are what now 1500lbs. How much lighter can it be when the load forces web when relative have need to make the components that robust. Maybe resigning to active aero and skinnier higher pressure tires we can see something.
I don't see this as reevolutionary as a midengine layout.

[Fogelhund]

Multiple reports of Highcroft being dissolved, though nothing official... wonder how that affects this project going forward.

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by gttouring

Half the wieght of what an F1 car? Those are what now 1500lbs. How much lighter can it be when the load forces web when relative have need to make the components that robust. Maybe resigning to active aero and skinnier higher pressure tires we can see something.
I don't see this as reevolutionary as a midengine layout.

The original design was to replace the current indy car. So I would ASSUME the weight they originally compared to would be the weight of the irl spec racer. But if they are now re-designing the car to compete against Protos, then one again can ASSUME that half the weight would be compared to the 900 Kilos of a P1. (or is that 925 now?)

Put Dan Weldon or a similar mal-nourished pint sized jockey in there and watch the thing go. Put an all female team of Danicas or smaller drivers and see how their slightly lower center of gravity helps them whip through the approach to the Indianapolis corner. Even better, a group of 14 year old future F1 cart racers who only know ON or OFF.

dh

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Multiple reports of Highcroft being dissolved, though nothing official... wonder how that affects this project going forward.

I wondered that too. Maybe the Delta Wing team run by Dayton won't be called Highcroft?

[gttouring]

I still wonder about the size of it. 460-470kg really. How much weight and where will it be saved. Or better how much ballast does a modern prototype Have?
Things can get smaller I figure but I wouldn't think that. Much smaller safely.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by gttouring

I still wonder about the size of it. 460-470kg really. How much weight and where will it be saved. Or better how much ballast does a modern prototype Have?
Things can get smaller I figure but I wouldn't think that. Much smaller safely.

Well a decade ago we had cars weighing in at 675kg, but they were much slower than today's cars. Then we could look just a few years ago the Porsche Spyder weighed in ALMS competition around 825kg, but I have a feeling they were running with ballast as well. So maybe the Porsche was around 775? or less?

With the Delta Wing, you have a smaller front end which has to save some weight there. F1 cars run around 600 kg (I think) and they are plenty safe judging by some of the accidents in recent years. But I don't know where you would drop another 100+kg from a F1 car to get the DW weight

[wolfhound]

an F1 car includes driver weight so you are now down to 525kg, remove KERS and an F1 car should be well under 500kg

[davehenrie]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

an F1 car includes driver weight so you are now down to 525kg, remove KERS and an F1 car should be well under 500kg

Again, The DW was not designed to halve the weight of an F1 car. It was not designed to compete against F1 at all. It was an Indycar alternative. Now, it's being marketed as a Sportscar Prototype alternative. Take a big Q-tip and squeegie all that F1 thought out of your head. F1 has nothing to do with the design and concept of the original or the new version of the DW.

FWIW, the first Acura P1, the ARX-02, was well under the weight limit. This allowed so much ballast to be placed so that the front to rear weight ratio was 50/50. Most(but certainly not all) rear engine cars are probably closer to 46/54.

dh

[joeb]

Originally Posted by davehenrie

Again, The DW was not designed to halve the weight of an F1 car.
dh

I know, but they keep selling the car as "half the weight, half the drag, half the power, half the consumption" so they must mean half the weight of something, and if it is an LMP1 car then half the weight is 450kg.

[skycafe]

The F1 weight results come at a HUGE expense, something in theory that is not a part of this Delta, as one of the great benefits was not costing the GDP of small countries.

I am sorry, I am a total cynic on this thing-it is being sold with amazing amounts of snake oil. I watched the video, sound muted, the appearance of the 'car' on a lift above Gurney and Bowlby does not look like a sports car, as the foot box area does not seem at all wide enough. Also, really being a cynic, if you show it in two seconds from underneath, it really does not show anything at all. If this was a working project....instead, it seems it was the mock up put together for show for the indy car. Not made of the miracle recyclable materials, but probably cheap and quick.

Wasn't it 23 test sessions they were going to run? When are those scheduled? There was some chatter about debut at Sebring so I guess they must be hard at work on constructing that car. They should show that.

[gttouring]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

an F1 car includes driver weight so you are now down to 525kg, remove KERS and an F1 car should be well under 500kg

That makes some sense. But half the cost? Of what the Audi effort?
This sounds more like hooey everyday

[joeb]

Well there are now reports that Highcroft have terminated all employees except two. I have never seen two people run a race team before, so if Highcroft are the ones to run the DW what gives?

[rich07]

Originally Posted by joeb

Well there are now reports that Highcroft have terminated all employees except two. I have never seen two people run a race team before, so if Highcroft are the ones to run the DW what gives?

Yes it doesnt make a lot of sense does it? Shame to see the team reduced to virtually nothing after their great showing at Sebring. Not really endearing me to the concept..

[joeb]

Highcroft have a new story on their website (website designer one of two retained employees?).

There is a picture showing the DW model and the first tub next two each other. They switched from a left hand drive to right hand drive tub. Other news items, the tub is full LMP1 spec, they are working with the ACO/FIA on a crash test for the front suspension/nose, and they are still working on the rear suspension.