Coupes from 2010

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by isynge

According to a reasonably substantial report in Autosport the rumour about LMP1 going down the Coupe-only route is fact as of 2010.

Originally Posted by Silk Cut Jaguar

Real cars have roofs.

I've never enjoyed the open top prototypes from an aesthetic point of view so this news has made my day.

Amen to that. Not to mention closed prototypes are safer than the open ones.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Not to mention closed prototypes are safer than the open ones.

Funny, it was long time ago but I remember from Mercedes' flips' investigation thingy on MulsanneMike's website that open protos have less risk of taking off.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Erki

Funny, it was long time ago but I remember from Mercedes' flips' investigation thingy on MulsanneMike's website that open protos have less risk of taking off.

Michele Alboreto and Jeff Clinton would both be alive today if they had been in closed prototypes.

[ger80]

Think we will not see new pesca, RFH, creation, .... only for 3 years.
porsche is doesnt like this new regs (motors germany interview), they want to talk with other team and after that with the ACO.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Michele Alboreto and Jeff Clinton would both be alive today if they had been in closed prototypes.

IMHO you can't just be so black & white, a driver in a coupe can still suffer head injuries.

It's like saying all F1 cars should have a roof, they just represent a different style of racing.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by ger80

Think we will not see new pesca, RFH, creation, .... only for 3 years.
porsche is doesnt like this new regs (motors germany interview), they want to talk with other team and after that with the ACO.

In an interview Lammers said RfH will choose their car/engine package in the next couple of months. He was positive about extra backing from Japan.

Because he expects extra Japanese support it's logic to conclude RfH will have also a Dome next season. The LMP1 coupe at Dome's website would be great....

[Gunman]

Maybe the Riley LMP car was a premonition of the coming rule change?



Of course it would need a bit of tweaking, to get rid of the F1 type nose, etc., but it is a coupe.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Gunman

Maybe the Riley LMP car was a premonition of the coming rule change?



Of course it would need a bit of tweaking, to get rid of the F1 type nose, etc., but it is a coupe.

Basically it would be back to the drawing board for them if the regulations mandate a larger greenhouse and narrower rear wing (not to mention the other changes--ride height, single seater type front bodywork). So effectively their effort up till now would be scrap unless they can get it on the track in say the next 12 months (giving it a 2.5 year racing life). Understand that the ACO is suggesting a complete revision of the regulations (again!)...not much would "carry over". Tub? Not for the open top cars (oh yeah, that's all the cars!)...they'd need a new designed closed top monocoque...pickup points would move front and rear necessitating revised bellhousing at the rear and monocoque insert locations. Basically you'd want to start from scratch and not compromise your design.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

IMHO you can't just be so black & white, a driver in a coupe can still suffer head injuries.

Yes, he can, but the possibility of it happening - or being injured at all - when flipping a closed prototype is almost non-existent as long as you have a proper racing seat, the HANS device and a correctly designed roll-cage.

Michele Alboreto was killed due to the rollbar being ripped off as his Audi landed upsidedown and Jeff Clinton was decapitated because his roll-hoop gave way which his car flipped through the gravel, neither which would have happened in a closed prototype.

[Nick49]

hello

If you like sportscars then you eventually come round to appreciate the current crop of prototypes cars IMO. Over the years I have liked the 60's prototypes, Group 5, Group 6, Group C, WSC, LMP1 & 2's etc etc(even the DP's!!). My personal favourite was the Group C era but whatever is racing I'll be watching.

Nick

[Gunman]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Basically it would be back to the drawing board for them if the regulations mandate a larger greenhouse and narrower rear wing (not to mention the other changes--ride height, single seater type front bodywork). So effectively their effort up till now would be scrap unless they can get it on the track in say the next 12 months (giving it a 2.5 year racing life). Understand that the ACO is suggesting a complete revision of the regulations (again!)...not much would "carry over". Tub? Not for the open top cars (oh yeah, that's all the cars!)...they'd need a new designed closed top monocoque...pickup points would move front and rear necessitating revised bellhousing at the rear and monocoque insert locations. Basically you'd want to start from scratch and not compromise your design.

I guess that would depend on how parametric their CAD models are, and how far along the design is. If everything was done right, they could have a big head start on things, or they could be starting over with fresh 1's and 0's.

[JAG]

The major players, Audi, Lola, Courage, Zytek/Creation (hybrid then full P1), are all running current P1's, by 2010 they'd have been on the racetracks for a full 4 years, and may still have another 2 years in the ALMS/JLMS.

If you have any pretensions to win races outright, even make the podium, you'll need a new, or at least heavily revised car every 3 seasons.

As for those who are happy to make up the numbers, wouldn't they be buying second hand chassis anyway?

Over the last few years we saw Rollcentre, Creation, Highcroft, Autocon etc. buy second hand chassis, fully aware they only had a two years max lifespan before major changes or new chassis were required.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Gunman

I guess that would depend on how parametric their CAD models are, and how far along the design is. If everything was done right, they could have a big head start on things, or they could be starting over with fresh 1's and 0's.

Not really. The CAD model is the last thing to worry about, its the design that the CAD model makes up that would have to be rethought, re-CFD'd, tunnel tested, etc.

And regarding second hand chassis...they typically can be had for a price that makes them very attractive.

And the constant major regulation change only hurts the Lolas, Courages, Zytek/Creations. Audi/Peugeot have the resources to respond to these changes.

[Gunman]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Not really. The CAD model is the last thing to worry about, its the design that the CAD model makes up that would have to be rethought, re-CFD'd, tunnel tested, etc.

I'd have to disagree. The "napkin sketches", etc. are where the ideas get started, but the CAD data is the core to the design process. No CAD data, and you don't have anything to CFD, FEA, or cnc for a scale wind tunnel. With a proper parametric CAD model, you can redesign, and retest in much less time.

I could take MT900 data, and modify it to fit different design criteria, much faster with my parametric data, than if I started over from scratch.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Gunman

I'd have to disagree. The "napkin sketches", etc. are where the ideas get started, but the CAD data is the core to the design process. No CAD data, and you don't have anything to CFD, FEA, or cnc for a scale wind tunnel. With a proper parametric CAD model, you can redesign, and retest in much less time.

I could take MT900 data, and modify it to fit different design criteria, much faster with my parametric data, than if I started over from scratch.

But that's the point, the proposed regulations change is so sweeping that it won't be a matter of pulling this surface here, that one there. It will be a matter of ok, how do what we did with the old regulations with the new ones? CAD is just a tool, its the ideas that lead to it that are the cornerstone. And if the regulations cause a rethink then the existing CAD model doesn't matter.

Not to mention that if you are beyond the CAD stage and have cut patterns then literally those are junk, espcially if the bodywork regulations are as proposed. You won't really even be able to rechuck your pattern to recut it (with the new surface).

[Gunman]

I thnk we're going way off from the original topic, and this could easily fill its own:

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

But that's the point, the proposed regulations change is so sweeping that it won't be a matter of pulling this surface here, that one there. It will be a matter of ok, how do what we did with the old regulations with the new ones? CAD is just a tool, its the ideas that lead to it that are the cornerstone. And if the regulations cause a rethink then the existing CAD model doesn't matter.

Again, as a CAD jockey I have to disagree...if you have good parametric data right now, you can change it (even radically) to meet the new rules package, or a new idea. Granted, it is just a tool, but with good data created by the tool, you can generate new ideas much faster.

Not to mention that if you are beyond the CAD stage and have cut patterns then literally those are junk, espcially if the bodywork regulations are as proposed. You won't really even be able to rechuck your pattern to recut it (with the new surface).

Hard tools are a different story, and if they exist, the cost is probably lost. Since we haven't seen anything other than a CAD image from Riley, and no word on a car being built, I'm guessing it only exists in the cyber world. My original posts intent, was that Riley was already looking at the closed top lmp design path, so they are farther down the path than if their concept started today. The path is probably going to change some, due to the rules package, but if their CAD data is adjustable (aka parametric), the new ideas can be implemented on a shorter time table than from scratch.

The more I work with the motorsports industry, the more I learn that in general they don't think along those lines. It took awhile at Mosler to get them to realise the power of good (modern) CAD data, and the time it can save on redesigns, but now its a big part of the program.

Oh well, I'll let this thread get back on topic, and not bore anyone more with my thoughts on parametric, and parallel design

[Flat12-Aircool]

Sorry to butt into this rather technical interlude, but as I see it the Riley's "Greenhouse" would (under the new regulations) still more or less be legal. It just means that they would be forced to run a considerably smaller rear wing because of the narrow windscreen.

One thing I've been wondering since hearing these new reg's is if any designer's going to try and go the 917K "Shelf" path and have a small cockpit windscreen with a narrow rear wing thats enclosed in sloping rear bodywork.

Or does the rear wing have to be independant from the bodywork? Would look good though...

[JAG]

I wonder if these regs would see a return to traditional Group C noses, ala the Toyota TS010, Mercedes C9/11, XJR-9 etc., rather than the kind of thing we see on the 905, 2003 Bentley?

[dj choc ice]

not sure, i think i could see the cars having not as much downforce but having a lot less drag and being faster in a straight line if the current engine regs will stay the same but i think these cars would have front ends like the toyota TS010 and not a front end like the pescarolo and modern LMP's, it would be nice the older style cars were sleeker looking than the current LMP cars but i think the cars will look very similar to the GTP cars of 1999 and 1998 but these rules are not coming into effect for another 4 years so its all going to be speculation or maybe thses new GTP type cars might start racing for next year or the year after instead of just starting coupe cars from 2010, maybe teams would debut new closed cars to the 2010 rules a year or two before to develop them at lemans since many big team bosses believe the only way to be good at lemans is with experience at lemans

[JAG]

Lola have released an image of the new B10/10 coupe.

It's the coupe version of the current car, and expected to be a base for a 2010 P1, whether that is the actual chassis or simply the experience gained from the car.

I found the following comments interesting when recent talk has been with regard to 2010 P1 being a major manufactuer 'only' class:-

'We are spending more windtunnel time in the near future and pushing ahead with developments as we have already had a few enquiries relating to a closed top version of the existing (current and new customers) LMP1. It is obvious that the ACO are aiming to attract more manufacturers to Le Mans in the future and we will be ready to offer a package that has been exhaustively tested and developed'

You can take these comment two ways, either the specialist manufacutuers/ACO envisage Lola, Dome, Courage etc. to build coupes that are then badged/take styling cues from major manufactuers (those that don't have the financial and technical resources to build a car inhouse, like Audi and Peugeot), or Lola expect/have been told by the ACO 2010 P1's will be open to specialist manufactuers also.

Is it just coincidence that recent P1 projects from Peugeot, Epsilon, Dome and Lola are coupes?

Judging by the RLM comments from Dyson, the 2010 announcemnt didn't seem much of a shock also.

[kingkai]

Coupe LMP1's, WOW airborn cars again.

Whehe, I know it was due to aerodynamics etc.

Well always loved the Speed 8, so maby we love the newones too

[dj choc ice]

yeah people will love it if they dont make them all diesels again

[Erki]

Originally Posted by JAG

or Lola expect/have been told by the ACO 2010 P1's will be open to specialist manufactuers also.

It better will..

[ScuderiaV8]

Lola have mentioned previously that they would be interested in building a car to win Le Mans with manufacturer backing, so publishing that rendering will be a good advert for them to any potential manufacturers looking ahead to 2010.
I can't really see the ACO making LMP1 a 'manufacturer only' category and alienating the privateer teams like RfH, Pescarolo etc. Privateers will always form the backbone of the class if/when the manufacturers lose interest, and that's where the likes of Dome and Lola come in. Combine these with renewed manufacturer interest and LMP1 could be in for a healthy future.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by JAG

Lola have released an image of the new B10/10 coupe.

Where is the press release in English?

In French: http://www.endurance-info.com/article.php?sid=2238
In German: http://www.gt-eins.at/cms/index.php?...d=531&Itemid=1