Goodyear/Dunlop/Pirelli/Avon

[darcym]

People in the know, are often commenting on how tyres make the biggest difference in F1. Looking at the Goodyear/Bridgestone war of the 90's and Michellin/Bridgestone war of late, I would tend to agree that a.) the tyres make a massive difference b.) working with a tyre team helps progress a car/chassis better than say a new rear wing.

I have read that goodyear thought about re-entering F1, but the costs, and not having a top team to work with made them think twice.

There are a few potential teams, or even a low team to work with and help progress, with this in mind I was wondering why the existing tyre makers not in F1 don't take a gamble to raise ther profile (worked with Michellin) and supply some other teams. Having more works/partner tyre deals would really make things more interesting.

Imagine, Bri/Ferrari, Mich/Williams Mich/Mclaren Avon/BAR Pir/Toyota Dunlop/Jordan

All as partner teams, then there would be a bit more at stake. eg do Renault take being a customer team of a renound tyre maker, or do they become a works team of a new tyre manufacturer, is Jordans improvment down to the car, or the Dunlops ? Should Sauber change to Dunlops ?

etc etc

I realise the costs for a tyre company, but hey the profile would be massive, and what a coup it would be if Avon made a great tyre, then ended up supplying Ferrari because it was better than Bridgestone...

I think this would be great.

[Williamp]

It's a ncie idea, although unlikely.

Oddly, I was at the CART race at Brands this year and had a good look at their race Bridgestones. The tyres had "Bridgestones" written on them in white, and then, in small black typeface, the words "Firestone"

Hmmm.....

[DaveOrama]

I've often thought that having multiple tyre suppliers would be a positive thing to have in the championship. But quite often many suppliers have in the past led to very one sided championships. You would see the current suppliers Bridgestone and Michelin have an advantage for several years before a new entrant caught up, if they did.

Instead of the distribution mentioned above, maybe Jordan and Minardi could have the Michelins, the Saubers, Jags and BAR could have Bridgestones, the Renaults and Williams the Pirellis, Maclarens the Avon tyres.

Ferrari of course would get the imitation scooter tyres made in North Korea that have all the adhesive qualities of Teflon.....

Having said that the relative cost for tyre supply would go down as the number of tyres manufactured by say Michelin would go down. Development costs acroos the board would increase.

[darcym]

it would make some interesting developments in the racing.

Look at Williams, they played a long term development game after 97 when renault pulled out. They accepted a crappy engines and tyres, on the basis they have struck up a deal with Michelin and BMW - and had a good year in 200 and came strong in 2001 now look at the long term support they have.

Imagine Jordan doing the same, a long term deal with say Avon now, testing for years like Michelin with the 98 Williams and then entering. Jordan could get sponsors easier if they layout a long term partner ship and investment plan, instead of, well we buy engines on a year by year basis making the chassis hard to progress as the engine supply could change every two years, we buy tyres off the peg made for Ferrari, and we'll use pay drivers for the forseable future

Against, We have signed a 5 year deal with ford, and will be running Avonas in 2006 after 2 years of testing, in 2004/2005. We'll also be going for a rated driver and a new young hot shot in 2006. We are using 2004/2005 as development years for a main re-launch in 2006.

Also as I said above, the coup of teams fighting for tyre partnership deals, or trying to steal deals from other teams

I think this would make it a great couple of seasons.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Williamp
[BThe tyres had "Bridgestones" written on them in white, and then, in small black typeface, the words "Firestone"[/B]

Bridgestone owns Firestone.

[paulzinho]

Are Goodyear still thinking of coming back or have they completely canned that idea?

[grumpy1]

You will find that the both Michelin and Bridgestone will have resipritory deals with thoose they supply.For example let us look at Mclarem/Mercedes.Given the amount of vehicals produced by MBez it is in Michelins intrest to supply F1 tyres.What they loose in supplying the F1 team they will more then make up for in original equipment supply for production vehicals(both pasanger and truck).The same can be said for Williams(BMW)Jaguar(Ford)BAR(Honda)Renault and Toyota.The same is for Bridgestone and Ferrari.The minnows Jordon Miardi will always float between manufactuers depending on who will give them the best deal per unit. One must remember the average cost of an F1 tyre is $1500US once it is flown to the track.If you then calculate the number of tyres a two car needs ready to roll per race you will find it is an expensive exersize.Michelin work on a budget of upwards of $50millionUS a year and Bridgestone cant be far off that.This is what will keep the others out of F1 as they know they cannot match the technoligy advance made by the current suppliers.You also have to take into account that these two are the worlds biggest tyre manufactours with Michelin No:1 closely followed by Bridgestone then a rather large gap to Dunlop/Goodyear(parent company the same but trade at seperate entities ie Bridgestone/Firestone).Until one of the current suppliers opens the door you won't see another step up to the mark.Don't also be surprised if towards the end of the season Bridgestone walks away(if things don't go well).Even then any company wanting to fill the void(if created)would have to outlay huge amounts to catch up as only the two current players have made grooved tyres.Goodyear withdrew when cars where still on slicks.The differnce between the two is the same as driving on slicks in a downpour.

The Grumpy1

[Mr V]

I must admit, that is something i long to see in F1, and have posted on it in the past.

The way i see it though, the problem facing a tyre company like Goodyear/Pirelli is.....

Ferrari and Bridgestone have a very unique partnership.

Michelin can give the same level of service to both Williams and Mclaren (and other teams too)

Goodyear/Pirelli would have to come in with, at best the 4th team (Renault) proberbly even further down the grid, this won't help them develop the tyres as the would require.

[grumpy1]

Mr V the Renault thing won't fly.Michelin are are major stake holder in the company.I belive a Michelin Rep sits on the board.

The Grumpy1

[Snrub]

Given the current level of competition, why would Goodyear want to come back? They would have to spend bucketloads of money and all things being even they'd have a 1/3 shot at getting the marketing advantage by winning.

As for CART and the Bridgestone's saying Firestone, there are two things to mention. 1. As was already mentioned Firestone is owned by Bridgestone. 2. CART tires use to be branded as Firestones. After the implosion of the Firestone brand after the Explorer rollover problems, the branding was changed to Bridgestone. Walk into a Firestone tire dealer and tell me how many Firestone tires you see on display. A couple years ago it was 0 out of 20. Now it's about 2 out of 20. The brand was not marketed or developed during this time because there was no point. Oddly enough the IRL continues to have Firestone branded tires.

[Mark Webber]

I'd like to see Yokoharma come into F1 . but I can not see it happening

[Redlake27]

If I can correct a couple of points..... Goodyear were in F1 when grooves were around (1998) but this change in regulations was stated as the main reason for withdrawal.

Looking at the criticism tyre manufacturers get for losing (Bridgestone in Hungary, Michelin anywhere wet)it is no wonder that the likes of Goodyear, Pirelli, Yokohama and Continental choose to push their marketing budget elsewhere.

Dunlop and Avon are different, as they are companies who operate as a business selling race tyres, rather than giving them away to sell more road tyres. I don't think either need F1.

[Smokey 6 litre]

Originally posted by darcym

Imagine Jordan doing the same, a long term deal with say Avon now, testing for years like Michelin with the 98 Williams and then entering. Jordan could get sponsors easier if they layout a long term partner ship and investment plan

i dont think Jordan could do this.

Williams had the past success and the financial resources to step back and rebuild, Jordans main aim is survival and they have no real guantee of success on a Williams scale to attract sponsors, or keep them when the going gets tough.

[krt917]

I'm in two minds over tyre wars. On one hand, it adds to the variety, and difference in tyre performance can, as has been shown a number of times over the last few years, make for interesting racing. On the other hand, however, it makes it difficult to assess just how good the rest of the package - ie. the car and driver, which I think it is fair to say most people are more interested in - is on a given day. Comparing the F2003GA with last years Renault or Williams was made difficult, for example, by the tyre war.

I don't suppose it really matters, but I liked the late 80s/early 90s when the top guys all ran Goodyears, but had different compounds that they could swap between WITHIN the races.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by grumpy1
Mr V the Renault thing won't fly.Michelin are are major stake holder in the company.I belive a Michelin Rep sits on the board.

The Grumpy1

Didn't realise that. But backs up my point even more, they would have to come in with a team that wouldn't do them any good for development.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by Redlake27


Looking at the criticism tyre manufacturers get for losing (Bridgestone in Hungary, Michelin anywhere wet)it is no wonder that the likes of Goodyear, Pirelli, Yokohama and Continental choose to push their marketing budget elsewhere.

I can't argue with that!

The cost of having your tire on a losing car, can really outweigh any good that comes from being on a winning one. And there are alot more losing cars than there are winning ones too.

What does that say about the cost of F1, when the largest tire manufacturer, Goodyear, winces at the cost of doing business with the series?

[grumpy1]

The parity between the 2 current competitors comes down to adhearing to the rule book.The way each build there tyres is different and as construction is the most important faze in building a tyre.The way a tyre is assembaled will determine grip heat diapation and overall shape when at,whats known in the industrie,as heat equalibrium.When tyres get hot they expand and deform from the orriginal shape intended.The way a tyre is constructed will detirmine if the tyre will work when hot.The other factor that must be taken into account is suspension and as Michelin design and build suspension systems they have an advantage.Renault F1 actually us Michelin designed and built suspension.To this extent as I said Michelin have an advantage.As to why the wets didnot work in extream weather they will never tell you but rest assured will correct it.
To correct a post declaring that Goodyear is the largest manufacturer in the world they are the 3rd largest behind Bridgestone (2) and Michelin(1).Figures are availible from Standard and Poors web site.

The Grumpy1

[GP Racer]

Oops, sorry! But Goodyear still has the nicest blimp!

[grumpy1]

The Michelin Man balloon is pretty impressive as well.When inflated he is seven stories high.

The Grumpy1

P.S. The Michelin Mans name is Bibendum

[jhansen]

I love the variety in F1, but I think it would be interesting to see the series have one tyre manufacturer like CART, IRL and NASCAR. The tyres can make such a big difference as we have seen historically. Without that difference, it would bring the quality of the teams, cars and drivers into play even more.

To grumpy1...The factory Corvette team will race on Michelins this year in the ALMS even though Goodyear supplies most of Chevrolet's tyres. If you're a racing team, ultimately it comes down to winning races.

[grumpy1]

I was aware of that the factory Vetts are on Michelin as are all of the top teams.Speaks highly of a companies commitment to motor sport.On the subject of tyres for the CART series I don't think Michelin will go there but may use BFGoodrich as it is a better know brand in the US.

The Grumpy1

[grumpy1]

Heres some interesting news for you all to come to grips with and see if you can figure it out.We will start with 2 facts.
1.Ferrari F1 run on Bridgestone.
Now the good bit.
2.Ferrari (factory team)will run this year in the ALMS series on Michelin.
Does this mean that at the end of this season of F1 Ferrari will show Bridgestone the door?I mean from what I can find contracts up at the end of 04.If this is the case will Bridgestone stay with F1 with no flagship team to support?
If this is the case and they walk away who will fill the void?If no one steps up then 05 will be pretty much a control tyre situation for want of better words.Ponder this also would Michelin drop a flagship team to keep Bridgestone involved? A lot of questions which may or may not occour but it really makes you wonder whats really going on.

The Grumpy1

[Redlake27]

I think Bridgestone will suffer from a 'Goodyear scenario' within a year or so and realise that the law of diminishing returns (in terms of positive coverage) means that they may as well pull out on a high.

This would leave Michelin as sole supplier, which would be cheaper for Michelin as the R+D costs outweigh the service costs, until one team starts sniffing around for an unfair advantage and you find a top team signing up Goodyear,Pirelli or someone else. The fall out from the sole supplier contract proposed for Rallying may give Pirelli some extra capacity if they lose out there.

[Super Tourer]

I can't see another tyre maker fancying the risk v reward of entering F1 at the moment.

All the off season talk has been about tyres and they are seemingly the crucial factor, so it's either glory for the victor or the blame for the loser. If you add the huge investment required only to have your name/brand potentially dragged throught the mire, maybe Pirelli et al, are glad they are not in F1......