1986 Australian Group A Touring Car Racing - Discussion & Results

[chunterer]

Yes, I'd go along with most of what you say and the original point about the CAMS officials at Spa giving Major Tom a warning not to bother bringing the 1986 Vitesses to Bathurst is certainly a strong possibility (which may have made him even more determined to get involved officially with Holden later on to show them...)

However the TWR operation even in 1986 would have had enough manpower and equipment to tackle the 1000. TWR had numerous Rovers at their disposal and even allowing for keeping 3 cars at home for the ETC run in, there would have been at least 2 other cars in then current spec, or available for upgrades. I guess the difficulty may have actually been available contracted drivers, not just from the ETC campaign but also anyone likely to be available elsewhere who would have been good enough for the job!

Tom, Win, Allam, Hahne, Schlesser, Hulme and Brancatelli would have been listed for ETC duty so that would have left Joosen, Thibault from the Bastos programme and Dickson and Crichton from the 'South Pacific' entries.

Maybe Tom could have shunted folk about and it's not difficult to envisage that a Bathurst crew could well have consisted of Hulme, Dickson, Goss, Crichton and maybe Brancatelli and Joosen (who were not in he car regularly) and an other without weakening the ETC assault. Plus of course Armin may well have wanted to defend his '85 win?

All of this is just idle speculation, but still, it's highly plausible, had the entry gone ahead as planned

[racer69]

I wouldn't have thought drivers competing in the ETCC and at Bathurst would have presented a problem logistically. Ravaglia raced the Gould/Schnitzer BMW at Bathurst in 86 in between his ETCC committments, as did Grice.

Did Hulme (AMG 190e) and Crichton (Volvo Dealer Team) find their Bathurst mounts before or after TWR officially dropped out?

Originally Posted by Holden308

That's the official story that went around. One rumour I heard (unconfirmed) was that Aussie officials, who were at the Spa 24 Hours to talk about Bathurst being a part of the 1987 WTCC, told Walkinshaw that the Aussie scrutineers at Bathurst wouldn't pass his Rovers like the FIA had been doing, and as a result Tom had a re-think and pulled out. Of course, that could have been part of the rumour about the TWR Rovers being not quite legal (never proven).

Some great stuff Holden308

During the winners interview after the Amaroo Better Brakes 300 in early August, Garry Wilkinson & Jim Richards discuss Bathurst and mention the Europeans coming in their "Jags and Rovers", obviously a reference to TWR. So at least publically there was a perception at the time that the TWR cars would be coming.

[Holden308]

That's true chunterer. Grice, Ravaglia and Dieter Quester were all at Zolder, then Bathurst, then at Estoril for the FIATCC race, so why TWR couldn't (or wouldn't) is a mystery and since TW has passed I doubt we'll ever know the true story.....unless Win Percy ever talks about it. TWR had enough drivers and Rovers around the place, and even had connections with a couple of Rovers in NZ they ran during the early year Nissan-Mobil series.

You say about TWR's involvement with Holden in 1988. Probably better left for that thread but its interesting to note that the TWR built VL Commodore SS Group A was found to be illegal (along with the Perkins built HSV team cars). Was it a case of Tom believing the cars would be passed fit by the FIA scrutineers who were at the Tooheys 1000? He wouldn't bring his Rovers out in 1986 when CAMS scrutineers would be running the show, but was happy to bring out the Commodore when it was run by the FIA and their less strict chief scrutineer Marcel Servis from Belgium. I also don't think they thought anyone (Neal Lowe) would put in a counter-protest

racer69, I too remember the Amaroo 300 interview with Wilko and Gentleman Jim. It wasn't until late that it was announced TWR wouldn't be coming to defend their Bathurst crown because JRA couldn't justify funding the deal. I doubt their no-show had the local teams crying over it though.

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

However the TWR operation even in 1986 would have had enough manpower and equipment to tackle the 1000. TWR had numerous Rovers at their disposal and even allowing for keeping 3 cars at home for the ETC run in, there would have been at least 2 other cars in then current spec, or available for upgrades. I guess the difficulty may have actually been available contracted drivers, not just from the ETC campaign but also anyone likely to be available elsewhere who would have been good enough for the job!

Logistics could have been an issue with an ETCC round on the weekends either side of Bathurst, but as you say, TWR weren't exactly short of Rovers- they'd been able to add a 4th car to the regular 3 car entry at a couple of ETC rounds in the summer under the 'South Pacific' deal, and in July had even fielded two cars at the Nurburgring ETC round and two cars at the Brands Hatch British GP support BTCC race on the same weekend...

The rumoured 2x Rover and 2xXJS challenge might have been a bit more of a stretch, though as racer69 says, there's no reason they couldn't have flown drivers down to AUS for Bathurst straight after Zolder, and then back for Jarama- after all, others did it

I did also ponder the idea that they could have enlisted support from the Jag Group C sportscar team as well, but they would have been otherwise engaged at Fuji on Bathurst weekend

[KA]

Originally Posted by Holden308

Sometimes controversy is fun chunterer

I do see what you're saying, and its highly possible that the fully developed Rovers could have matched the Jaguars over a single lap or race distance. In 1984 the V12 Jags were pumping out 450hp, and in 1986 the V8 Rovers were making 340hp, up from 1984's quoted 300hp. Is an extra 40hp over two years, plus other developments in suspension and tyres, enough to make them faster at tracks like Monza?

.

If we're comparing the 1984 XJS and 1986 Rover performance using those Monza qualifying times, bear in mind that pretty much all of the top teams in the ETCC found at least a couple of seconds a lap during that period, not just the Rovers- Tom's 2m00.71 in the Jag in '84 would only have got him on the 4th row of the grid two years later.

The clearest comparison, ignoring the turbo cars, is the one other car present in the top 10 of that Monza grid in both 1986 and 1986, the BMW 635CSi- both Rover and BMW by 1986 in their last season and at the peak of their development.

Ravaglia's Schnitzer car had qualified with a mid-2m04 in 1984, and 2 years on, he was doing mid-2m00s....
1984:

Pos	Car	Time
1	XJS	2.00.71
2	XJS	2.01.78
3	Rover	2.03.10
4	XJS	2.03.30
5	Rover	2.03.32
6	Volvo	2.04.37
7	BMW 635(Schnitzer)	2.04.40
8	BMW 635 (Brun)	2.04.43
9	BMW 635(Eggenberger)	2.04.46
10	BMW 635(Schnitzer)	2.04.58

1986

Pos	Car	Time
1	Rover	1.58.45
2	Volvo	1.58.22
3	Volvo	1.58.23
4	Holden (Grice)	1.58.48
5	Rover	1.58.57
6	Rover	1.59.36
7	Holden(Brock)	2.00.32
8	BMW 635(Schnitzer)	2.00.56
9	Sierra XR4Ti(HWRT)	2.02.32
10	BMW 635(Schnitzer)	2.03.20

[chunterer]

Interesting comparisons KA, the biggest gain in performance looks to have been the Rover. When I said it was likely to have found a couple of seconds of pace thanks to developments, TWR actually gained 5, at Monza at least according to your table!

I suspect the homologated fuel injected 'twin plenum' engine, aero bits and various lightening would account for that.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Holden308

That's true chunterer. Grice, Ravaglia and Dieter Quester were all at Zolder, then Bathurst, then at Estoril for the FIATCC race, so why TWR couldn't (or wouldn't) is a mystery and since TW has passed I doubt we'll ever know the true story.....unless Win Percy ever talks about it. TWR had enough drivers and Rovers around the place, and even had connections with a couple of Rovers in NZ they ran during the early year Nissan-Mobil series.

You say about TWR's involvement with Holden in 1988. Probably better left for that thread but its interesting to note that the TWR built VL Commodore SS Group A was found to be illegal (along with the Perkins built HSV team cars). Was it a case of Tom believing the cars would be passed fit by the FIA scrutineers who were at the Tooheys 1000? He wouldn't bring his Rovers out in 1986 when CAMS scrutineers would be running the show, but was happy to bring out the Commodore when it was run by the FIA and their less strict chief scrutineer Marcel Servis from Belgium. I also don't think they thought anyone (Neal Lowe) would put in a counter-protest

racer69, I too remember the Amaroo 300 interview with Wilko and Gentleman Jim. It wasn't until late that it was announced TWR wouldn't be coming to defend their Bathurst crown because JRA couldn't justify funding the deal. I doubt their no-show had the local teams crying over it though.

The JRA-funded 1985 campaign was much rumoured to have burnt through over $750k to bring the 3 TWR Jaguars to Bathurst.

Roadways & Allan Grice were reported to have been looking for backers for an ATCC assault for the whole championship & the endurance races for around $400k per car!

Given that JRA was also struggling with currency issues, as well the vagaries of its bus building operation, it was no surprise TWR wasnt invited back

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

The JRA-funded 1985 campaign was much rumoured to have burnt through over $750k to bring the 3 TWR Jaguars to Bathurst.

Roadways & Allan Grice were reported to have been looking for backers for an ATCC assault for the whole championship & the endurance races for around $400k per car!

Given that JRA was also struggling with currency issues, as well the vagaries of its bus building operation, it was no surprise TWR wasnt invited back

Phew, that's a lot of money for those days I would have thought?

Bus building you say?!!

[Holden308]

Just goes to show how expensive Group A was, especially if you were not just running your own domestic series

If it cost JRA / TWR $750k to do one race at Bathurst in 1985, imagine what it would have cost HDT and Roadways to race heavily on both sides of the world in 1986.....or indeed the European teams who ran every round of the 1987 WTCC.

Cost was a major reason that most of the old Group C privateers ran Group A for the first few years, but started to fade away into other things after about 1990. The cost of even running a Group A Commodore from 1990 (usually the Walkinshaw VL) was simply too much for most of the privateers.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Phew, that's a lot of money for those days I would have thought?

Bus building you say?!!

They seemed quite successful at it for a time... Wiki notes

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by KA

Logistics could have been an issue with an ETCC round on the weekends either side of Bathurst, but as you say, TWR weren't exactly short of Rovers- they'd been able to add a 4th car to the regular 3 car entry at a couple of ETC rounds in the summer under the 'South Pacific' deal, and in July had even fielded two cars at the Nurburgring ETC round and two cars at the Brands Hatch British GP support BTCC race on the same weekend...

The rumoured 2x Rover and 2xXJS challenge might have been a bit more of a stretch, though as racer69 says, there's no reason they couldn't have flown drivers down to AUS for Bathurst straight after Zolder, and then back for Jarama- after all, others did it

I did also ponder the idea that they could have enlisted support from the Jag Group C sportscar team as well, but they would have been otherwise engaged at Fuji on Bathurst weekend

I just did a highly unscientific bench test. I ran the 1986 Bathurst 1000 on rFactor and added in the #8 & #9 Jags from Bathurst '85 and a pair of Bastos Texaco Rovers from '86 ETCC.

The Jags qualified 1st and 3rd and Tom won the race. The Rovers qualified in the bottom of the top 10 and both failed to finish.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

I just did a highly unscientific bench test. I ran the 1986 Bathurst 1000 on rFactor and added in the #8 & #9 Jags from Bathurst '85 and a pair of Bastos Texaco Rovers from '86 ETCC.

The Jags qualified 1st and 3rd and Tom won the race. The Rovers qualified in the bottom of the top 10 and both failed to finish.

Fantastic stuff!

[Holden308]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

I just did a highly unscientific bench test. I ran the 1986 Bathurst 1000 on rFactor and added in the #8 & #9 Jags from Bathurst '85 and a pair of Bastos Texaco Rovers from '86 ETCC.

The Jags qualified 1st and 3rd and Tom won the race. The Rovers qualified in the bottom of the top 10 and both failed to finish.

David, where did you get the Jags for rFactor? I've been searching for those since I found Touring Car Legends almost 2 years ago. Same with the 1986-87 Skylines. The best I've found is the 1988 GTS-R painted in Australian/NZ team colours (Gibson, Murray Carter and the Baigent/Bowkett cars).

[DAVID PATERSON]

I can create engine, gearing physics etc. for rFactor, so the cars drive & perform correctly, but I can't do 3D modelling, so they appear as grey boxes.

[Holden308]

Originally Posted by William Dale Jr

1986 Australian Touring Car Championship
Round 3 - The Castrol Challenge - Sandown Park, VIC (13/4/1986)

Circuit Length: 3.9 km
Race Distance: 21 laps (25 laps scheduled, race duration reduced due to TV commitments)
Weather: Sunny

Lowe and Francevic traded the lead a couple of times, until the Volvo pilot punted Lowe into a spin at the hairpin at the end of the back straight.

Sorry to bump but.....oh well.

It was actually Fury in the Skyline who punted Lowe. He pretty much did what Alan Jones would do to Mark Skaife 7 years later at Symmons. Got into the rear quarter of the Commodore on the entry to the hairpin and just kept going until the Commodore looped it coming out of the turn. He made zero attempt to back off.

Back then nothing at all was done about it, the rule was simply play on and Lowe had to cop it sweet. These days (2017) Fury would definitely have copped a drive-through penalty at the very least.

You know, as good as George Fury was, sometimes his driving was a bit like that. He had a bit of the Gricey about him in that if you didn't get out of his way, he was coming through anyway so move it or lose it. Patience in a touring car wasn't his best virtue.

[Holden308]

Just on the Sandown ATCC round.....

With Neal Lowe subbing for him, Round 2 of the ATCC was the first Sandown ATCC race that Peter Brock had missed since 1975. Although he had driven a fair bit in his native New Zealand, it was also Lowe's only ever ATCC race as a driver.

It was also John Harvey's first ATCC race at Sandown since 1979. Coincidentally, he finished 6th in both races driving for the HDT.

For the first time in the 1980s (after missing the 1980 round), Dick Johnson had a DNF beside his name. Every other time in the 80s he had finished on the podium at Sandown (1st in 81 & 82, 3rd in 83, 2nd in 84, 3rd in 85).

Sandown was Glenn Seton's ATCC debut for Nissan, but it was actually his 4th ATCC race after having raced his dads Ford Capri in 3 races in 1984, finishing 16th at Surfers, 13th at Oran Park and 12th at Lakeside.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Holden308

Just on the Sandown ATCC round.....

With Neal Lowe subbing for him, Round 2 of the ATCC was the first Sandown ATCC race that Peter Brock had missed since 1975. Although he had driven a fair bit in his native New Zealand, it was also Lowe's only ever ATCC race as a driver.

It was also John Harvey's first ATCC race at Sandown since 1979. Coincidentally, he finished 6th in both races driving for the HDT.

For the first time in the 1980s (after missing the 1980 round), Dick Johnson had a DNF beside his name. Every other time in the 80s he had finished on the podium at Sandown (1st in 81 & 82, 3rd in 83, 2nd in 84, 3rd in 85).

Sandown was Glenn Seton's ATCC debut for Nissan, but it was actually his 4th ATCC race after having raced his dads Ford Capri in 3 races in 1984, finishing 16th at Surfers, 13th at Oran Park and 12th at Lakeside.

You missed another important stat.

It was the first ATCC round I went to

[BlueMax]

"Round 2 of the ATCC was the first Sandown ATCC race that Peter Brock had missed since 1975"

What about the 1984 rounds when Harvey took over his car while he was driving the 956 in Europe.

[Holden308]

Originally Posted by BlueMax

"Round 2 of the ATCC was the first Sandown ATCC race that Peter Brock had missed since 1975"

What about the 1984 rounds when Harvey took over his car while he was driving the 956 in Europe.

Ahem....as in an ATCC race at Sandown. He had not missed an ATCC race at that track since 1975. Brock had missed some (not many) other races since then, the most recent before this was when he missed round 1 of 1985 when the Commodore they took to NZ hadn't got back to Australia yet.

The 1984 races you refer to were round 4 at Surfers Paradise and Round 6 at Lakeside. He actually won at Sandown in the opening round of 1984.

[Holden308]

Originally Posted by chavez

You missed another important stat.

It was the first ATCC round I went to

You beat me to the ATCC by about 10 years. The first I can remember going to was Mallala in 1996. Unfortunately only being a kid I didn't get to any of the AIR rounds as I couldn't drive and my dad was usually working (mum didn't drive lol). And for anyone who knows AIR and its location, there was and still is zero public transport to the place so there was no way to get there other than by car. No buses that went down Port Wakefield Road stopped anywhere near the place and the nearest train station is Elizabeth which is about 9 km east as the crow flies.

Saw plenty of the Group A and later 5.0L's and Super Tourers at the Grand Prix meetings here in Adelaide though. I can tell you, sitting in the pit straight stands and (in practice particularly) seeing the Nissan GT-R's leave everyone else for dead out of the hairpin at the end of the lap was awesome. That thing was like it was shot out of a cannon compared to the Sierra's, Commodore's and M3's. Interestingly though, Feddy Gibson's team always geared them very low for the GP circuit with its right angle corners and hairpins. On the Brabham Straight they were only hitting about 240 km/h, about 10 less than the Sierra's and Commodores (according to Ch.9's on-screen speed readouts).

[chavez]

My first race meeting wasn't a ATCC round either. It was the 1984 Sandown 500.

Both the Sierra's and GTR were awesome out of Dandenong Road at Sandown. The Sierra for a complete lack of grip and the GTR for complete grip.

[Holden308]

Originally Posted by chavez

My first race meeting wasn't a ATCC round either. It was the 1984 Sandown 500.

Both the Sierra's and GTR were awesome out of Dandenong Road at Sandown. The Sierra for a complete lack of grip and the GTR for complete grip.

Compared to how Sandown was before mid-84 and how it is now, they really didn't do a great job in lengthening the circuit. Neil Crompton said it best during the 1988 ATCC round there saying that unfortunately while bringing it up to the minimum length for an FIA World Championship race (3.9 KM), all they ended up doing was adding about 800 metres of 1st or 2nd gear hairpins intermixed with some short squirts in between. Sure the new section probably added a couple of more passing opportunities, but it wasn't very well thought out. The best thing they did for the cars (bikes still used the infield section for safety reasons until the mid-late 1990's) was abandon the infield and just use the outer course.

Did you know that the originally projected touring car lap times for the then new circuit in 1984 were in the 1:29 - 1:30 bracket. Unfortunately they were way off and the tourers were about 17 seconds slower than that and it took until the 1988 WEC cars for anyone to lap under 1:30.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Holden308

Compared to how Sandown was before mid-84 and how it is now, they really didn't do a great job in lengthening the circuit. Neil Crompton said it best during the 1988 ATCC round there saying that unfortunately while bringing it up to the minimum length for an FIA World Championship race (3.9 KM), all they ended up doing was adding about 800 metres of 1st or 2nd gear hairpins intermixed with some short squirts in between. Sure the new section probably added a couple of more passing opportunities, but it wasn't very well thought out.

I don't know how much other options they had with the horse track in the middle

They probably wanted to incorporate Rothmans Rise into any GP track but the lack of run-off space there (a problem still today judging by recent Supercars events there) probably wouldn't have passed the test for Sportscars or F1 track licencing.

I guess we should just be thankful that when they did put the new track in, they didn't dig up and grass over the Dandenong Rd section of track....

[Holden308]

Originally Posted by one five five

I don't know how much other options they had with the horse track in the middle

They probably wanted to incorporate Rothmans Rise into any GP track but the lack of run-off space there (a problem still today judging by recent Supercars events there) probably wouldn't have passed the test for Sportscars or F1 track licencing.

I guess we should just be thankful that when they did put the new track in, they didn't dig up and grass over the Dandenong Rd section of track....

Sadly given the confines of the Sandown complex, you're right, they really were restricted with what they could do. They couldn't go outside because of the property boundaries so cutting across the horse track was really their only option. But IMO even with that they could have done it better.

[one five five]

Why did Nissan only run the one car for the final ATCC round?