[Rules] Future Rule Changes

[tux]

Reverse grid sprint races.... https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/13/...nd-up-13-09-5/

[Aysedasi]

Just do away with the sprint races.....

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by tux

Reverse grid sprint races.... https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/13/...nd-up-13-09-5/

I fear for the future of Formula 1 under Liberty Media.

[VIVA GT]

I did like the idea of 'normal' sprint races at first (even though they completely ruin my weekend as I watch the qualifying and race highlights the following day when I can access the TV, so have to avoid any sort of 'news' so my 'surprise' isn't spoiled), but this year have found them less than interesting due to the fear of taking a risk in the sprint could ruin someone's starting position for the 'real' race.
I accept things like reverse grids in stuff like the BTCC which is obviously more of a circus that pure motor-sport nowadays (and I still enjoy watching the races now I've accepted that), but please no, not in F1...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by tux

Reverse grid sprint races.... https://www.racefans.net/2022/09/13/...nd-up-13-09-5/

In that article Domenicalli says: “the beauty of having reshuffles in the race, more overtaking,” “We have an obligation to try.”

Agreed, they have an obligation to improve the racing with more overtaking but not with gimmicks like this. Even if they do go ahead with it, it will only be for sprint races and won't necessarily improve things for the actual race.

[Aysedasi]

How about if the championship leader has to start a full lap down? Only this current season though..... (and he'll still bloody win!).

[chillibowl]

imo they missed their chance with this idea...drives through the field are far to common place now days for this idea to be considered exciting imo.

if anything it just highlights that regardless of rule changes and/or budget caps, F1 lacks the level of top to bottom quality of competition required to actually make it interesting.

money has been limited, cost of engines subsidized, more parts allowed for sale etc and still half the grid isnt anywhere close to producing competitive cars....do they even deserve to be called constructors anymore?

im ranting for sure but you allow for full customer cars or even better have the top teams run more than 2 cars each....which would mean if Max (or whomever the top driver/car combo is at the time) wants to drive through the field then they would have to pass 4 other RBs, 5 Ferraris and 5 Mercs, 5 McLarens (feel like they are still trying to get back to the top) to take the lead.

that would then make reverse grids an exciting feature right?

[Greem]

If it's all just about entertainment, instead of reverse grid sprint races why not have a variety of single-spec cars available on Saturday? Y'know - Minis, FFord, F3, Radicals, TCR or something. Draw lots to see which driver gets which car. 20 minute practice, 20 minute qualifying, 30 minute race.

Or get rid of sprint races altogether and put some local supports on instead, although that means the one-day-meeting-stretched-over-three-days that an F1 weekend is might get a touch too busy. We know the great and the good need their champagne and caviar time

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Greem

If it's all just about entertainment, instead of reverse grid sprint races why not have a variety of single-spec cars available on Saturday? Y'know - Minis, FFord, F3, Radicals, TCR or something. Draw lots to see which driver gets which car. 20 minute practice, 20 minute qualifying, 30 minute race.

Or get rid of sprint races altogether and put some local supports on instead, although that means the one-day-meeting-stretched-over-three-days that an F1 weekend is might get a touch too busy. We know the great and the good need their champagne and caviar time

Good idea Greem. Why not have a support race featuring a manufacturer backed sports car championship that also included (maybe) the top 10 F1 qualifiers also in identical cars?

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Greem

If it's all just about entertainment, instead of reverse grid sprint races why not have a variety of single-spec cars available on Saturday? Y'know - Minis, FFord, F3, Radicals, TCR or something. Draw lots to see which driver gets which car. 20 minute practice, 20 minute qualifying, 30 minute race.

Or get rid of sprint races altogether and put some local supports on instead, although that means the one-day-meeting-stretched-over-three-days that an F1 weekend is might get a touch too busy. We know the great and the good need their champagne and caviar time

not against that...more so if they achieve their goal of even more races per season. to be honest, im not really against any idea that offers greater format variety across such long seasons.

however, my preferred solution would just be less races and then the need for these sorts of 'value added' ideas goes away.

fear of losing traditional venues could be alleviated by venues alternating each year. the lack of running at anyone venue in consecutive years should theoretically add to the challenge and thus increase the entertainment/uncertain outcomes?

but really its not about entertainment for them...they need to squeeze as much as they can. maybe even more these days as rising inflation and interest rates/debt servicing eats away at their profits?

so really its going to be more races and more ways to add interest to an overcrowded calendar.

bringing us back to sprint races and reverse grids being the more palatable/least offensive of choices?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Good idea Greem. Why not have a support race featuring a manufacturer backed sports car championship that also included (maybe) the top 10 F1 qualifiers also in identical cars?

IROC for F1 drivers. I think the cars should not be super quick and should be relatively close to stock.

Richard

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

IROC for F1 drivers. I think the cars should not be super quick and should be relatively close to stock.



Richard

And run for qualifying position?

Didn't they have something similar with the old M1 Procar on F1 weekends?

But I'm guessing there's no way the moneyed peoples would be ok with risking the drivers and taking time away from them in the fancy people areas

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

And run for qualifying position?

Didn't they have something similar with the old M1 Procar on F1 weekends?

But I'm guessing there's no way the moneyed peoples would be ok with risking the drivers and taking time away from them in the fancy people areas

The BMW M1 Procar Championship, 1979 - 1980.


https://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/maga...m1-procar.html

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

But I'm guessing there's no way the moneyed peoples would be ok with risking the drivers and taking time away from them in the fancy people areas

Sadly, teams like Mercedes, Ferrari, etc. (who are promoting their automobile products) likely would have zero interest in seeing their drivers in anything other than their cars. So I enjoy us day dreaming about something like this (F1 drivers in some type of lower performance/saloon spec support race during F1 weekend) is not likely to happen. However I would love to be wrong.

Richard

[chavez]

Simple solution.

Two races per weekend. One race on the Saturday and one race on the Sunday.

Grid positions are drawn out of the hat. With 22 race weekends and therefore 44 races, the drawing of grid positions won't markedly affect any particular driver.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The BMW M1 Procar Championship, 1979 - 1980.


https://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/maga...m1-procar.html

This was what I was referring to in my previous comment. (Unfortunately no-one could see that my tongue was firmly in my cheek as I wrote it!)

[BTCC frog]

I think another change that really needs addressing is the points system. It is, quite simply, ridiculous, that finishing in a higher position in the race always awards a driver with more points, regardless of how many crypto.com overtakes they made to get there, and what they said in the press conference etc. I think the obvious solution to this problem would be to make it so the fans can vote on how many points each driver should get at the end of each race weekend. That way they could increase fan engagement as well as making the points system fairer. Obviously, to make sure that the people voting are taking it seriously, the actual number of points awarded would have to be a weighted average across all the fan votes, with those who have bought more merchandise allowed a greater weighting.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I think another change that really needs addressing is the points system. It is, quite simply, ridiculous, that finishing in a higher position in the race always awards a driver with more points, regardless of how many crypto.com overtakes they made to get there, and what they said in the press conference etc. I think the obvious solution to this problem would be to make it so the fans can vote on how many points each driver should get at the end of each race weekend. That way they could increase fan engagement as well as making the points system fairer. Obviously, to make sure that the people voting are taking it seriously, the actual number of points awarded would have to be a weighted average across all the fan votes, with those who have bought more merchandise allowed a greater weighting.

Not to be rude, but is it 1st April already?

[S griffin]

Liberty really don't get it. Sprint races haven't improved the show, so they should just get rid of them, instead of alienating the audience more by putting in reverse grids. Really I think it's time we got someone in who cares more about the sporting side than the so called show business side

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Liberty really don't get it. Sprint races haven't improved the show, so they should just get rid of them, instead of alienating the audience more by putting in reverse grids. Really I think it's time we got someone in who cares more about the sporting side than the so called show business side

That's a bold statement to make.

You may think that Sprint Races have not improved the show (and many agree with you) - but there are many others who think it has improved the show.
I'm not sure if you can back up the claim that audiences are alienated - 'Since 2018, F1 has seen a steady increase in average viewership per race in the U.S. — from half a million in 2018 to almost 1.5 million in the 2022 circuit. The 47% increase from 2021 alone has helped spur F1's financial success.'

If that's alienated - it's still working....

Who are the 'we' that should get someone in? F1 without showbusiness is not F1. I note previously you advocate for retention of Monaco on the calendar - surely that venue only exists for 'show' because the sporting side there is terrible.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Really I think it's time we got someone in who cares more about the sporting side than the so called show business side

Short of a wealthy benefactor buying the commercial side of the business and NOT running it in a way to extract the potential value... a pivot from commercial to sport is never going to happen.

BE was a bit of an exception. He cared about the sport, but he opened Pandora's box regarding the commercial side as he also wanted to extract money.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

That's a bold statement to make.

You may think that Sprint Races have not improved the show (and many agree with you) - but there are many others who think it has improved the show.
I'm not sure if you can back up the claim that audiences are alienated - 'Since 2018, F1 has seen a steady increase in average viewership per race in the U.S. — from half a million in 2018 to almost 1.5 million in the 2022 circuit. The 47% increase from 2021 alone has helped spur F1's financial success.'

If that's alienated - it's still working....

Who are the 'we' that should get someone in? F1 without showbusiness is not F1. I note previously you advocate for retention of Monaco on the calendar - surely that venue only exists for 'show' because the sporting side there is terrible.

F1 without show business is not F1, that's an interesting comment. In the early '70s, when I first started to follow F1, if there was a show business element it was limited and very much played a support role to the racing. The British GP used to feature an air display from the Red Arrows and in the early '80s that expanded into a mini-Farnbourough Airshow, with all sorts of planes including the Harrier Jumpjet and a B17 Flying Fortress. Some of the support races took on a novelty aspect, with sports personalities and Radio 1 DJs competing and even The House of Lords v The House of Commons, but that was about the extent of it. There was no grid-walk with celebrities who have no interest in F1, with whom Martin Brundle could have encounters with.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

F1 without show business is not F1, that's an interesting comment. In the early '70s, when I first started to follow F1, if there was a show business element it was limited and very much played a support role to the racing. The British GP used to feature an air display from the Red Arrows and in the early '80s that expanded into a mini-Farnbourough Airshow, with all sorts of planes including the Harrier Jumpjet and a B17 Flying Fortress. Some of the support races took on a novelty aspect, with sports personalities and Radio 1 DJs competing and even The House of Lords v The House of Commons, but that was about the extent of it. There was no grid-walk with celebrities who have no interest in F1, with whom Martin Brundle could have encounters with.

I entirely agree that F1 has not always been about 'show'. But 40 / 50 years on from the time(s) you describe (not intended to make you sound old - honestly) the world, and F1 with it, has moved on a long way. The scale of F1, if it is to exist as the top tier of formula racing, means it must carry a certain amount of show or it will fail (IMO).

An aside - it always gripes me a little when people refer to F1 as being the 'pinnacle' of motorsport. I think that is wrong, and does a dis-service to other categories. It may be the pinnacle of formula racing, but there is a reason why WEC is referred to as a 'sports car' series. That (IMO) is where the pinnacle of motorsport lies.
F1 entertains, WEC provides the biggest sporting challenge. If F1 was to focus solely on the sporting side of racing, at the expense of putting on a show, it would soon fall behind WEC I think because it would not offer something different.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Sadly, teams like Mercedes, Ferrari, etc. (who are promoting their automobile products) likely would have zero interest in seeing their drivers in anything other than their cars. So I enjoy us day dreaming about something like this (F1 drivers in some type of lower performance/saloon spec support race during F1 weekend) is not likely to happen. However I would love to be wrong.

Richard

They could race in the virtual world...

[BTCC frog]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Not to be rude, but is it 1st April already?

Yes, just a little joke However, apart from the merchandise bit, it is a genuine fear I have for the future of Formula 1 under Liberty Media, although perhaps a little 'slippery slope fallacy.'

Originally Posted by S griffin

Liberty really don't get it. Sprint races haven't improved the show, so they should just get rid of them, instead of alienating the audience more by putting in reverse grids. Really I think it's time we got someone in who cares more about the sporting side than the so called show business side

I certainly agree with everything you say here, as is often the case, but in terms of the final line, whilst that would certainly be better for us as fans in an ideal world, in real life I suspect that it's utterly impossible. The only hope can really be if Liberty Media's 'catering to the casual fans' plan backfires horribly and they lose a lot of money, leaving them with no choice but to sell up, and the person who buys it is someone who does actually care about the sporting side. But I think that extremely unlikely.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I note previously you advocate for retention of Monaco on the calendar - surely that venue only exists for 'show' because the sporting side there is terrible.

I really like Monaco for the sporting side. The races aren't always the best due to it being difficult to overtake but as it is the most difficult circuit to drive on the F1 calendar, there is something mesmerising about watching the cars on a qualifying lap, absolutely at the limit, the drivers showcasing all of their skills. In terms of the races, although they can be rather processional, when you do get an overtake it is normally a great one that requires an incredible amount of skill, as long as the car ahead is trying to defend, and that is something worth watching as something different to every other F1 race. I wouldn't want 22 Monaco-like races but one a year is the right number, in my opinion.