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Old 23 Apr 2002, 08:56 (Ref:268202)   #1
Raoul Duke
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The differenc between a good driver and bad driver, is it all in the head?.

Over the years in F1, we've had some phenomenal drivers, we've had some average drivers, and we've had some drivers who were complete flops. So my question is what makes a great driver great, what makes a bad driver bad, etc. Is it all mental, or is it purely skill, or is it both.

Could the David Coulthards, the Eddie Irvines and the Rubens Barrichello's of the sport be just as good as the Micheal Schumacher's and the Senna's if they adopted the right attitude. Or is it simply of case of them just physically not being good enough.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, do you think being a good driver is more mental then it is physical?.
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Old 23 Apr 2002, 12:20 (Ref:268364)   #2
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I think when you get into the upper realms of racing talent, it's more a question of natural reflexes than anything else. The Sennas, the Fangios and the Nuvolaris of this world would react to things and respond to them before other drivers even saw them coming.

That's aptitude. Attitude, on the other hand, probably helps you to get as far as F1 in order to face up to the stars. Everyone on the grid these days has a stupendous fitness regime, dedicated to being the best athlete possible. Being a tiger behind the wheel can be counter-productive. Coulthard, Irvine and Barrichello are all darned good racing drivers. Are they as hungry as Schumacher? Certainly. But perhaps that last .1 of a percent comes through being more naturally aggressive.

What fascinates me is how drivers who are not necessarily "naturals" find tactics that will compensate. Niki Lauda, Nigel Mansell and Graham Hill were not natural demigods, but used their determination to teach themselves aggression and speed. They won races and championships with it. We appreciate them because they were so obviously trying so hard.

Alain Prost made up in tactical genius what he lacked in outright aggression.

Is the car necessarily helpful to a driver? It's been suggested in more than one place that Michael Schumacher would not have had such an easy ride to so many titles if the car had the same characteristics as the turbocars of the 1980s. I'm not saying that he's any less of the driver because of it, but the dynamics of a modern high-nose car suit him. I personally feel that David Coulthard would have done better for himself in an earlier generation of car.

Final thing. There is no such thing as a bad driver in F1. And I include people like Giovanni Lavaggi and Taki Inoue here. They are all in the upper echelon of their craft. There is a reason they are there. But nevertheless it is intriguing to examine the reason why their skill didn't take them to the top step of the podium.
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Old 23 Apr 2002, 12:26 (Ref:268371)   #3
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f1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
But can the presence of Deletraz ever be explained? Let us not forget he was lapped 10 times in around 40-50 laps.
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Old 23 Apr 2002, 12:29 (Ref:268373)   #4
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Okay, here's my take:

Practice, strategy, and the academic side of driving: Prost made this a very important part of driving, and as the cars have gotten more complex and temperamental, it's become even more important. If you can master this, you'll get far. Not so useful in touring or GT cars. This very technical style is very important, though, on modern tracks with no passing zones, and increases in important in direct relation to the weight of the car, the lighter the better.

Physical condition: Schumacher made this more important than it had been previously, but I refuse to believe it will make the difference between winning and losing. Probably more helpful in front-engined cars.

Natural talent: That raw, seat-of-the-pants feel for exactly what the car is doing at any moment. Most important for rally drivers, it used to be essential for any form of motorsport. Radial tires and aerodynamic improvements which negated 4-wheel drift as a technique for F1 drivers really reduced the important of this, though. Evidence Jean Alesi. Rain is a blessing for these drivers. Typically goes hand-in-hand with...

Drive, dedication, desire to win: There are two kinds; Guys who are out to stock their trophy case, like Schumacher or Mansell, and guys who absolute love to compete, like Montoya, Villeneuve, or Senna. The first can result in some undesirable behavior, but the second is the real stuff. It's what you need to push the car deeper into a corner than anyone else dares, to pass in places you're not supposed to pass... And to make those incredible climbs back through the field after some misfortune. Red haze _really_ pushes a driver and his car beyond their natural limits; evidence Fangio, Nurburgring, 1957.

Mechanical competence: You _have_ to be able to work with your engineers to get the setup you want, and during the off-season, craft a car suited to your strengths, or to compensate for your weaknesses. You'll never be a #1 driver without some measure of this. I'll have to admit, M. Schumacher seems very good at it.

I'm gonna try and break down some current top contenders here. Just off the cuff...

M. Schumacher, wins the race before the lights go out
Technical: 35%
Physical: 10%
Talent: 30%
Desire: 5% (he's done some damn stupid stuff to win, but no red haze)
Mechanical: 20%

J. P. Montoya, driving by the seat of his pants
Technical: 15%
Physical: 0%
Talent: 60%
Desire: 20%
Mechanical: 5%

R. Schumacher, precise and practiced, doesn't take risks
Technical: 65%
Physical: 5%
Talent: 20%
Desire: 0%
Mechanical: 10%

K. Raikonnen, extremely well balanced
Technical: 35%
Physical: 10%
Talent: 35%
Desire: 10%
Mechanical: 0%, but he's very young

Mind you, in the real world, this shouldn't always add up to 100. I'd put Montoya and M. Schumacher at 100 based on today's scale, Kimi at 95, and Ralph at 90. And of course, that varies with how a given track suits them.

Last edited by Lee Janotta; 23 Apr 2002 at 12:37.
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Old 23 Apr 2002, 12:32 (Ref:268377)   #5
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Nice explanation TimD, thanks.

And we must remember that even natural talents like Senna, had to work hard to get more concentration and fitness, to be the best.
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Old 23 Apr 2002, 12:36 (Ref:268381)   #6
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The qualities that are most appreciated by professionals within the sport are not the same ones that are appreciated by the fans, it seems to me. Schumacher undoubtedly has excellent speed - but more importantly he has the ability to keep up that speed for a full race distance (a very rare skill), and for an entire season (even rarer). Attributes such as even temprament, consistency, scientific understanding and application are essential in F1 and it's entirely feasible that a naturally quick driver may not make it at the highest level if he fared less well in these departments. Ross Brawn has often praised Schumacher for being able to drive "in the background" of his mind - for example he hs said that you'd never imagine from his tone of voice that he was racing at all, he is that relaxed in the car.

I used to love Keke Rosberg for his flamboyant style and fantastic hard-charging talent - but I remember reading often that he was next to useless for developing the car because he wouldn't work methodically and carefully.

Mansell was another of my faves - he succeeded with sheer grit above all else.

I personally think that the driving standards are now so high that any driver without an almost perfect all-round make-up is unlikely to be WDC. I think this is the reason that the current number one continues to succeed - some of the race-craft of Prost, with some of the one-lap speed of Senna, with some of the bloody-minded aggression of Mansell... you get the idea.

As far as the mind goes - yes, I think the men from the boys criteria at the highest level is mental.
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Old 23 Apr 2002, 13:24 (Ref:268417)   #7
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One of the most difficult and under recognised skills of the modern greats is the ability to drive just below the limit when needed. Senna and Schumacher are famous for it. It is easier to drive the car on the limit than it is to remain at a point around half a second of the limit lap after lap. That skill seperates the very good from the great.

Most of the all time greats had/have a huge amount of talent, this backed by exeriance turns them into great. Schumcher was not the great he is today the minute he arrived but he clearly had talent. As he gained experiance he evolved into the world beater we all hate now (joke! ).

Thats why I appreciate what JPM will be capable of. He clearly has spades of talent which, when he gains experiance, will make him a fanominal racing driver.
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Old 23 Apr 2002, 16:14 (Ref:268551)   #8
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lee......very interesting if you don't mind me saying, but i thing i don't understand is the bit under montoya.....physical.0% what o you mean exactly? that physically he doesn't put any effort in or physically he doesn't need to?

(p.s.i agree with the rafe.desire.0%!!!! )
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Old 23 Apr 2002, 17:59 (Ref:268651)   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by mr v
lee......very interesting if you don't mind me saying, but i thing i don't understand is the bit under montoya.....physical.0% what o you mean exactly? that physically he doesn't put any effort in or physically he doesn't need to?

(p.s.i agree with the rafe.desire.0%!!!! )
Well, I like Juan a lot, but in all fairness, he doesn't want to spend a lot of time jogging and weightlifting, and keep on a strict diet like Schumi does. Though he's certainly not fat, he doesn't come to the track at "fighting weight", as some have pointed out. Though he's an olympic athlete compared to the level Mansell let himself get to.

I don't think it's that important, though. There are a lot of NASCAR drivers, for instance, who get noticeably overweight and still manage to get thru 500 mile races with a blast furnace sitting right in front of them, in blazing hot summer weather in the south. Not that NASCAR drivers are anywhere near the skill level of an F1 pilot, but the physical demands of a GP at Spa and last weekend's 499-mile race at Talladega are comparable.

And before I get flack from Halfie's fans, what I'm saying is that while Ralph is happy to be competitive, he doesn't need to be competitive to be happy. He's got a good life away from the track, and racing is just the family business, and enable him to have the things he really wants. He'll take the safe points, put in his time testing, and go home.

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Old 23 Apr 2002, 20:10 (Ref:268793)   #10
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i'm watching someone mess up their racing career because of what's going on in their head. only they can understand it and solve it, and they don't. it's clear evidence that you can have talent, and not have the knowledge how to use it.

the ability to switch from outside a car to inside a car and racing is very difficult to find and absolutely essential for a world champion. i can only think of one driver on the way to formula one who's got it.
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Old 23 Apr 2002, 20:13 (Ref:268798)   #11
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i think it must be added that a factor in what makes a driver is psychopathy, this can be good or bad. this can help drivers reach the absolut limit and ultimately be very fast indeed, however as jpm has found out to his cost sometimes it can be a hinderance. A driver who is not so brave (or stupid) is not going to get the most from the car
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Old 23 Apr 2002, 20:27 (Ref:268816)   #12
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The differences are the ability to do the homework to prepare for the race and their mindset. Some drivers get paid to just bring the car home. Some actually go out to race!! The greats can do both. MS will nurse the car if he has a 30 second lead. He knew in Brazil that his brother would not pass him so he just kept speed so RS would not get any ideas. Things like that make MS great. He is intelligent. RS, IMO, is a good driver. He lacks the aggression needed in a close fight. However, if he has the best car in the field and gets pole he is controlled enough to not mess up.

There is a prayer... God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can and wisdom to know the difference. The drivers that know what to do and when to do it are the greats. They know how to work best with what they are given.
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Old 24 Apr 2002, 05:11 (Ref:269084)   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by neilap
MS will nurse the car if he has a 30 second lead.
just like he did in spa '98? tgf has been regarded as the most intellegent driver in f1 today, and to a certain extent i agree, however, his intellegence is often out weighed by his desire to make others look silly or inept, and this imo isn't intellegent! had tgf cooled it in spa he would have won no problem, but basically he was trying to prove too much that he was the best that day by taking risks, and although he may have been the fastest, he wasn't the best, damon was cos irt was damon who brought the car home in first position!

the other thing i would like to say about it possibily being all in the head............no matter what alex yoong's mentality is, and i'm not saying he's not an intelligent young man, but, you could stick tgf's head on yoongs shoulders and he still wouldn't get much further up the grid than he is now!
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Old 24 Apr 2002, 06:28 (Ref:269095)   #14
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It is simple

a good driver is a driver that willing to die
with his car

one of the example is JPM

his drive aggresively better than MS
but his skill still, I doubt it

And a good car its also simple
the car which use petrol brand name $$$$

But it's obvious that the bad driver ->
guess what

the driver that failed to qualify

ha ha ha ha ha
take it's easy
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Old 24 Apr 2002, 06:51 (Ref:269098)   #15
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The only thing I can add -all really good posts- is that one thing it takes more of today than in the past is concentration..intense concentration..with the really top flight drivers they get better as they more intensely concentrate..
They did studies where they placed people under more and more stress as they tried to perform certain tasks.
Most people started breaking down and making mistakes as the stress input increased..racing drivers actually performed better the more stress that was placed on them
They had the ability to more and more finely foucus their concentration.....
Many of todays driver are really good, but they lose their concentration at some point...I think one thing the top of the line drivers have is the ability to stay in that zone the length of the race.....imho

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Old 24 Apr 2002, 09:39 (Ref:269182)   #16
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I read the feature in F1 Racing magazine last night about Ralf and Michael - some really interesting insights and well-reasoned thougts on what makes them tick and what the differences are. Also, throughout the magazine there are several pieces about driving technique that I found fascinating.
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Old 24 Apr 2002, 12:30 (Ref:269313)   #17
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Driving is 90% a mental game, and always has been. The concentration level required for todays cars is no greater than that of the past, and in some ways is actually easier.

Drivers of past generations did not have the luxury of bullitproof cars - tires that would last the whole race while being driven at the limit, gearboxes that do the shifting for them and rarely break, engines with almost perfect drivability characteristics, brakes that don't fade or change characteristics as the race progresses, telemetry that allows the car to be adjusted by engineers in the pits whilst the race is underway, and telemetry that tells them exactly what is happening at all times out on the track.

Yesterday's driver had to not only concentrate on driving, they had to have an intuitive "feel" for exactly how much punishment it could take and still make the race distance - a gift that few drivers today have to develop, but something that the very best can still do.

Racecraft is different today because of the differences in the cars. A young and inexperience driver like Button, or Raikkoken, who shows exceptional speed and raw talent, can make the grade with such a glaring lack of experience because of all of the aids that allow them to just concentrate on their driving - as long as the engineers do their job well, these young driver will be able to do theirs.

It's when a car isn't perfect that the differences in a drivers mental capability and experience show up. An inexperienced driver will most likely have an "off" period while learning to adjust , whereas an experienced driver will adjust very quickly.

The careers of Schumacher and Button are great examples of this: Schumy, after getting a couple of world chamionships, went thru a period of second rate cars. His previous experience, coupled with the desire to succeed, gave him the ability to adapt to the circumstances and ultimately get a performance level out of the car that almost anyone else would have failed at. These experiences, both good and bad, are what make him such a formidable opponent today - if things aren't perfect, he has already had the experience of sorting out what needs to be changed to succeed.

These are the "intangibles" that separated Senna, Prost, Lauda, Stewart, Mario, and Mansell from the rest.

Button, on the other hand, was lucky to be able to get into a good car his first year, and just concentrate on his driving. His first year at Benneton was just the opposite - the car was trash, and he was too inexperienced to know what to do with it. His raw talent didn't just disappear over night - that was still there - but he lacked the mental experience in handling a difficult situation. Now that he has had a chance to acclimate, his bad experiences of last year will actually make him a better driver in the long run, just like it has for Schumi.

Montoya most certainly has the raw talent and speed, but currently lacks the experience, in F1 at least, to be able to instantly sort out what has to be changed to fit the circumstances. Assuming that he does actually learn this mental skill, he too will be a formidable opponent for year to come.

Then there are supremely gifted drivers like Alesi - raw talent galore, but for some reason he never learned to adapt to the changing F1 game. While his natural speed was never in question, his mental toughness was, which is why he never got top notch rides after his first few year in the game. Owners don't like to give such drivers second, or third, chances, when the indicators point to a lack of mental adaptability.

So, yes, driving is a mental game. All drivers at this level are supremely gifted physically, but the very best are gifted to the same level mentally.

But at the same time, it is also a very physical game, and without the physical toughness that it takes to stay relaxed for a whole race year, never mind just a race weekend or just the race itself, the mental abilities will disappear quickly. The two go hand in hand, and always have.
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Old 24 Apr 2002, 18:44 (Ref:269647)   #18
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This is an excellent topic, I have to give props where it is due. It turns out that there are so many little things that separate the good from the great. Skill, intelligence, attention span are all very important. One more thing is luck. Most teams and drivers create their own luck. Jordan seems to be unlucky, so do his drivers. I feel it is a matter of a lack of preparation. Ferrari has done the opposite. Sometimes it just seems that MS has God on his side. People's cars breaking on the last lap and other such occurrences seem to plague his opponients.
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Old 25 Apr 2002, 00:27 (Ref:269920)   #19
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Confidence. Confidence in the car. Confidence in "your people". Confidence in your ability. Confidence in your superiority.

TGF exudes confidence. And, whether you like it or not, that's why he's the best at what he does.
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Old 25 Apr 2002, 01:16 (Ref:269955)   #20
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I've decided to throw in my two cents worht of opinion from a slightly different perspective, my own experience.

Sometimes its easier to talk about racing through what I have or have not done, as opposed to what I know (or think I know.)

Being known to have a penchant for Karting, its from this area of our sport I'll give my perspective.

I find that there are some drivers on the track with me who seem like they are just there to have a good time. On the track this seems to result in them being easy to get by as they lack aggression, but some can be unpredictable as they realise some magic "new" line right in front of you, inventing new braking zones, turn angles and sometimes foregoing the out/in/out theory that so many of us subscribe to.

Other drivers, seem intent on being the most aggressive on the track on every corner's entry and exit, leading to classic overdrivng. Off the track they are all noise and ego, almost embarrssing that they are also in motorsport, and somehow misplace there energy when it comes to race pace.

Occassionaly there a some who surprise me, they didn't appear to seem so confident or experienced but they really turn on the pace and seem to be solidly competitive in a staedy dedicated way. They consistantly produce fast laps and make only a few errors, but that's usually enough. Once by them they don't have enough speed to challenge in return.

I'm not in the God-like category if that's what you are waiting to find out, as my concetration wanders and sometimes I'm thinking about a poor cornering for a lap or more. Perhaps so I don't make the same mistake again, but its that consciousness that pulls me out of my mental 'groove' and takes another lap or 2 to get back. I feel the ability to leave each corner where it is and not think about it is critically important. Its amazing how long a person can function not realising that they are actually thinking about something else. This slows and interrups the sensory impulses involved in every vibration, reaction, correction, visualization (that's my brake marker..)etc.

I believe that what makes someone like Montoya so frighteningly good is that he really never seems to think about his driving in an active way, but just reacts to the input he gets without a lot of the interuption that I believe others get. When he does think, it has usually been to a negative result (Austria with Michael.)

Michael Schumacher, also astonishingly brilliant, has these similar traits, but seems more capable of thinking about many things while driving. It can be remebered though that Montoya joked and talked with team boss Chip Ganassi when at Indy500 towards the end, to maintain relaxation!

It's this ablilty to disassociate from the racing and still remain at or quicker than race pace, that sets these drivers apart from the guys who are 'just' F1 drivers, in my view.
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Old 25 Apr 2002, 09:51 (Ref:270139)   #21
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I too am a Kart racer and have witnessed many of the experiances you describe. I race indoors and outdoors regularly and in equal measure. On the outdoor circuit I tend to find a far different breed of driver from those who race indoors. Many of those who race indoors are often the 'boy racer' types who turn up in their tuned 12 year old vauxell nova's, giving it plenty, but then having little real speed on track.

It is from Karting that I have got my appreciation of JPM. When I win a race having maybe not got corner quite right for the whole event, or having knocked someone else wide as I went to overtake, then I will be disappionted. JPM said recently; "I want to get home and say I won because I was the quickest guy out there, not because I took that other guy out". This is a way of thinking I greatly admire.
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Old 26 Apr 2002, 01:24 (Ref:270819)   #22
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Not much to add to the excellent posts above, except perhaps a word in defence of Jean Alesi. I think in his case he happened to be in F1 20 years too late for the driving style that is undeniably his. Alesi is a man who wants to drive the car, and the modern cars simply won't allow it. He has been quoted many times deriding the driver crutches, er, "aids" that are now standard on the F1 cars, and I'm sure that is the main reason why: because he wants to drive the car, not have it drive him.

Prost always said he wanted to win the race with the minimum possible effort -- and I believe this is a way of saying that he did not find it necessary or desirable (considering the cars he drove except the McLaren) to drive the car at the limit unless there was no other way. I always kind of thought that statement drove Senna crazier than anything else he said -- because Senna could not conceive of ever being in a race car without driving at the top limit of his ability. I also think Senna had a little bit of the urge to not only beat his rival but bury him, and he was never so happy as when he could put Prost a lap down. Which style is "best"? That's like saying "is the 1979 Ferrari a better car than the 2002 Ferrari?" It all depends on how it suits the guy behind the wheel.

P.S. There is never going to be a better car than the Lotus 79, and no one will drive it as well as Mario Andretti.
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Old 26 Apr 2002, 02:35 (Ref:270856)   #23
freud
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freud has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Remember guys, Racing is 70% machine and 30% driver. Thats one reason why I dont judje a driver by 'statistics'. I feel that in every win, there is an element of machinery invloved. If one separate the machinery from the driver and then try to compare on raw talent, only then can one find out who's really talented. But as some of you pointed out its not only the talent, but the capacity, determintaion and focus. Looking at the grid right now, I have my own vivid idea about the 'level' of each driver on the grid. Think of it this way. Put all of the 22 drivers on a F2002. Who'll give pole, who'll lead the race? Interesting questions..
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Old 26 Apr 2002, 02:41 (Ref:270857)   #24
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Dr. Austin should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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[i]Originally posted by Liz

P.S. There is never going to be a better car than the Lotus 79, and no one will drive it as well as Mario Andretti. [/B]
Right on, Liz. There probably isn't a Grand prix car that was ever more beautiful, either.
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Old 26 Apr 2002, 03:20 (Ref:270868)   #25
Lee Janotta
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Lee Janotta should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
<sighs wistfully>

F1's so diminished without those gorgous JPS cars.

Of course, having invertabrates like Max, Bernie, Flavio and Jean running around in place of legends like Ken Tyrrel and Colin Chapman doesn't help things.

Just dreaming here... Lotus? Cadillac? Jacques? I wish...

Thanks for the thoughts, Liz. Dead on.

Doc, what about the '67 Eagle?

Last edited by Lee Janotta; 26 Apr 2002 at 03:26.
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