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Old 12 Dec 2017, 04:21 (Ref:3786456)   #26
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Originally Posted by Ospi View Post
Can understand the frustration for Walkinshaw as their engines builder becomes redundant unless they change manufacturer (which I'm sure they're trying to do) , and they lose the lease income from grm and Erebus.
So don’t lose the HRT status and you might still be a strong source of customer supply

This has been coming for a while...
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 04:38 (Ref:3786459)   #27
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Whether it was HRT or 888, having one supplier in a monopolistic position isn't good for the category long term. If all engines are from the one source and of the same specification, then one less variable. While I can't recall 888 cars been wanting for horsepower, there probably have been times when others have had an advantage.
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 05:43 (Ref:3786461)   #28
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Wonder if this could be considered a restriction on trade and catch the eye of the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission?
Not at all on either account

Holden give permission for the car to be homologated to the specs they approve of. If they don't want their car to have a V8 in 2019, they are perfectly within their rights to deny this, they are the one's giving permission for the ZB bodyshape to run in the first place. This is nothing new, has been going on in touring car racing for decades.


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Whether it was HRT or 888, having one supplier in a monopolistic position isn't good for the category long term
Isn't this what some people have been crying out for for years? Engines coming from the one source?
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 05:52 (Ref:3786466)   #29
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Whether it was HRT or 888, having one supplier in a monopolistic position isn't good for the category long term. If all engines are from the one source and of the same specification, then one less variable. While I can't recall 888 cars been wanting for horsepower, there probably have been times when others have had an advantage.
Actually if you ignore the racing impact and just look at the fiscal argument, having one engine developed and everybody equal should enable more people to win than 3 parties all spending money to end up at the same place anyway. Plus leasing the engines mean a fixed cost which should mean there are no haves and have nots, and people can plan.

Besides, 888 hasn't made engines and will not be making these. They are going from KRE to GM motorsport. Noonan will be out of Supercars next year with BJR moving to KRE. so WP would be the only other choice practically.

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Old 12 Dec 2017, 06:06 (Ref:3786471)   #30
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Isn't this what some people have been crying out for for years? Engines coming from the one source?
Absolutely. One engine spec. One price.
One reliability.
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 06:18 (Ref:3786474)   #31
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Absolutely. One engine spec. One price.
One reliability.
Yes one price, a higher one. And it's naive to think everyone's gets exactly the same engine, T8 already play those games.
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 07:11 (Ref:3786481)   #32
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Yes I seriously doubt 8 will have the same engine as 88.

It's to be expected to be honest, you see it in F1 - Ferrari/Mercedes customers are always a little behind in regards to the engine, slowly getting updates through the season. It's only a negative when there's no option to go elsewhere. Depending on Ford/Nissan, that might not be far off
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 07:12 (Ref:3786482)   #33
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Triple Eight doesn't play a hand in what spec engine a customer gets from it's supplier KRE. That's between KRE and their customer base.

If you're referring to uprights, it's open slather, and wil remain that way until the catagory decides to make it a control part (long overdue).

The whole one engine supplier per manufacturer thing should've been sorted out when COTF was put in place.
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 08:02 (Ref:3786488)   #34
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Triple Eight doesn't play a hand in what spec engine a customer gets from it's supplier KRE. That's between KRE and their customer base.
oh bless. There's a lot which can be altered with an engine independent of its hardware spec, things which with the closeness of this series can have a meaningful impact on performance, things which the teams with clout can recieve..

Last edited by Ospi; 12 Dec 2017 at 08:09.
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 09:40 (Ref:3786499)   #35
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That's what money is for.

You want the latest spec parts, you pay accordingly.
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 19:16 (Ref:3786628)   #36
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When you can't spend your money anywhere else what's that called again?

This isn't an indictment on T8/Holden, but more on the series itself. If Ford/Nissan had more attractive futures within the series, teams could make a real choice about what they want to race. At the moment it's all "uncertainty" this and "Ford won't pay to homolagate" that juxtaposed against new bodies being tested, new engines being produced, very reliable "supplier"... Moving forward is there even a choice when it comes to manufacturer?
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 19:28 (Ref:3786630)   #37
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When you can't spend your money anywhere else what's that called again?

This isn't an indictment on T8/Holden, but more on the series itself. If Ford/Nissan had more attractive futures within the series, teams could make a real choice about what they want to race. At the moment it's all "uncertainty" this and "Ford won't pay to homolagate" that juxtaposed against new bodies being tested, new engines being produced, very reliable "supplier"... Moving forward is there even a choice when it comes to manufacturer?
Supercars need to distance themselves and no longer be reliant on manufacturers.
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 21:38 (Ref:3786660)   #38
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Supercars need to distance themselves and no longer be reliant on manufacturers.
Would be ideal, although the T8/Holden deal has great potential too, especially if it was implemented series wide - if the great racing and world class drivers remained, would anybody truly care if it was a "Commodore Cup"?
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Old 12 Dec 2017, 21:43 (Ref:3786662)   #39
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What's the biggest one make sedan series in the world...?
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Old 13 Dec 2017, 02:37 (Ref:3786716)   #40
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This isn't an indictment on T8/Holden, but more on the series itself. If Ford/Nissan had more attractive futures within the series, teams could make a real choice about what they want to race. Moving forward is there even a choice when it comes to manufacturer?
The problem is simple: a lack of worthwhile return-on-investment for manufacturers!

If the ROI added up, Australian importers of various car brands would be knocking down the doors to join. They are not stupid.

Supercars need to fix this if they want to attract manufacturers!

Otherwise it is ok to have a variety of independents running different body shapes, as is the case in the BTCC.
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Old 13 Dec 2017, 03:22 (Ref:3786726)   #41
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When you can't spend your money anywhere else what's that called again?
Suppliers to the catagory are largely sought through a tender process.

In the case of the ZB Commodore, Triple Eight are the custodians of the Supercar IP with regards to the appearance of the racecar, and the componentry which achieves the desired look. This was Holden's decision, and Supercars backed it. Same goes for the engines.

As time goes on, the market may open up to allow perhaps another party to carry out the servicing and maintenance of the V6TT, likewise the production of the body parts that aren't a genuine GM item.

I recall a time, in the early days of COTF, where only a select few teams were allowed to produce the chassis. Initially, GRM and BJR weren't included. They've probably built more chassis in recent times than anyone else.
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Old 9 Jan 2018, 21:11 (Ref:3791620)   #42
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What's the biggest one make sedan series in the world...?
Ferrari Challenge!
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Old 9 Jan 2018, 21:12 (Ref:3791621)   #43
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Suppliers to the catagory are largely sought through a tender process.

In the case of the ZB Commodore, Triple Eight are the custodians of the Supercar IP with regards to the appearance of the racecar, and the componentry which achieves the desired look. This was Holden's decision, and Supercars backed it. Same goes for the engines.

As time goes on, the market may open up to allow perhaps another party to carry out the servicing and maintenance of the V6TT, likewise the production of the body parts that aren't a genuine GM item.

I recall a time, in the early days of COTF, where only a select few teams were allowed to produce the chassis. Initially, GRM and BJR weren't included. They've probably built more chassis in recent times than anyone else.

Or DJR!
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Old 9 Jan 2018, 21:53 (Ref:3791622)   #44
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DJR still doesn't build their own chassis. They're all built by Pace.
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Old 9 Jan 2018, 22:57 (Ref:3791627)   #45
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Ferrari Challenge!
Or Carrera Cup..
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Old 9 Jan 2018, 23:29 (Ref:3791630)   #46
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Ferrari Challenge!
They are not sedans.

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Or Carrera Cup..
Don't think you could call them sedans either.
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 00:50 (Ref:3791639)   #47
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They are not sedans.


Don't think you could call them sedans either.
Agreed, but at least you can sit 4 people in a roadgoing Porsche 911
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Old 10 Jan 2018, 01:09 (Ref:3791642)   #48
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Agreed, but at least you can sit 4 people in a roadgoing Porsche 911
Agree, 911s have been eligible to race as touring cars before as well so definitely closer to a sedan than a Ferrari Challenge car.

Still not all the way there however - not a sedan.
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Old 31 Jan 2018, 06:33 (Ref:3797069)   #49
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Some unhappy campers in Holden team owner land.Triple Eight dealing with ZB part bottleneck
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Old 31 Jan 2018, 07:13 (Ref:3797078)   #50
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Some unhappy campers in Holden team owner land.Triple Eight dealing with ZB part bottleneck
Very very weird to be behind on production. When 888 built CotF, 6 chassis in total, plus parts for lots of other cars, the delays like this did not seem to happen

At least the 888 threesome have enough parts to run right?
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