[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Crazy_Pigal]

I haven't read through all 345 pages of this thread, so forgive me if someone else has suggested this, but...
All our defecting LMP1 manufacturers (plus many others) are going to formula E & will be developing state of the art 250kW ish electric powertrains, so why not stipulate the the hybrid element of the LMP-H regs must conform to these FE regulations & be completely independent of the combustion engine... so you could end up with an Audi, Porsche, Jaguar, whoever supplying a powertrain (& their badge) on your LMP1-H on the front axle (let's assume, but could be rear if your name is Nissan!) & a convention ICE on the rear. The battery pack would be much smaller than FE as it'll only be doing let's say 8MJ per lap not a full race. You could even say that the powertrain must be homogolated for FE. What I'm getting at is that if a manufacturer can split their development costs over more than one race series then it has to be cheaper, even more so if they already have a powertrain being actively developed? or am I missing something?

[AoB Special Stage]

That would be interesting, but the deployment requirements of a hybrid unit and a full EV one are distinct. It would most likely end like Group C/F1, with one engine (Pug then) being great in one trim, but sub-optimal in the other.

[chernaudi]

Other than out of control costs and the deck being heavily stacked in favor of full factory outfits, an other complaint/oddity that I have about these regs is that even in the sprint races, the drop off in race pace vs qualifying for fast laps is bigger than I've seen in a while.

In the pre-big hybrid days, it wasn't uncommon for fastest race lap anywhere to be within about a second or so of any cars' qualifying time. Now, like at COTA, there was about a 4 second gap between pole time and fastest race lap.

I know that a lot of that's down to hybrid deployment to get one or two fast laps in qualifying and that it's very difficult to do the same on a consistent basis in the race, but I'm surprised that the gap between qualifying times and race laps is now as big as it seems to be.

[chernaudi]

Another complaint, this time about the ACO not wanting teams to run something that by now everyone and their brother has on production cars.

I'd like to see LMP1s be allowed to run something similar to the Atkinson cycle or the Budack cycle, but there's one problem. Both (especially the Budack cycle) require variable valve timing, something the ACO doesn't want teams to run on their engines, though almost everyone makes mass produced engines with it.

This is one area that I think the ACO need to get with the program on the engine front.

[GasperG]

Now that VW is using something similiar that Toyota used in 1997, now this is problem

We already had that variable valve timing arguments years ago.

Problem with those two valve tricks is that they are used under low rpm and fairly low load, as far as I know all those types of engines switch to otto cycle under high rpm and full load.

[chernaudi]

And the Miller cycle existed before Toyota's version, which is just the Miller cycle without a supercharger.

And to say that VVT or the Atkinson/Budack cycle is worthless on a racing engine is oversimplifying things. DFI is pretty much useless at full load for fuel economy or performance gains, and even at the slowest tracks you're still going to spend a majority of the time at or near full throttle. But everyone in racing is now running DFI, something that Audi did over 15 years ago but didn't catch on until recent years in racing.

[TF110]

I hope you guys did the wec survey. It took a while, but it had interesting questions. I voiced my opinion about lmp1 becoming something more than just for manufacturers. I also want it to become a class with GOOD looking and sounding cars.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

I hope you guys did the wec survey. It took a while, but it had interesting questions. I voiced my opinion about lmp1 becoming something more than just for manufacturers. I also want it to become a class with GOOD looking and sounding cars.

Link here:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151758

[Adam43]

Unfortunately I forgot to mention that we desperately needed variable valve timing of some sort or another.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by CTD

Link here:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151758

Good link. Let's discuss there.

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Another complaint, this time about the ACO not wanting teams to run something that by now everyone and their brother has on production cars.

I'd like to see LMP1s be allowed to run something similar to the Atkinson cycle or the Budack cycle, but there's one problem. Both (especially the Budack cycle) require variable valve timing, something the ACO doesn't want teams to run on their engines, though almost everyone makes mass produced engines with it.

This is one area that I think the ACO need to get with the program on the engine front.

What's to stop someone from developing a real Atkinson engine. I glanced over the technical refs and one is not excluded.

[chernaudi]

The problem is that stuff like the Miller/Atkinson/Budank cycle engine, the part where the intake valves hang open is optimized for part load. When the engine is at full throttle is goes back to the conventional Otto cycle.

Hence why VVT is used on such engines, and it's a technology that's currently illegal in ACO rules series, though even old fashioned pushrod engines are sold with VVT.

My point with that is that even at Le Mans, where you spend over 80% of the lap at or near full throttle, there's still and advantage that can be gained. As I pointed out, the major gains with DFI is at part load/part throttle, but it was worth while enough for Audi Sport tor run it on the R8, and in the years since road cars were widely using DFI by 2008, though it did take longer for it to be used on race cars in spite of it's proven advantages.

[YZFrider]

The first Atkinson cycle engines didn't need VVT. There was a mechanical linkage on the rod and crankshaft that created the unique property of the Atkinson cycle: short compression to long expansion stroke.

[TF110]

Dsc has a little information about the Dallara lmp1 and it's lmp2 'joker'
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/0...ns-in-lmp.html

[chernaudi]

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/n...d-in-december/

Seems that the ACO want to go in the direction of the original GT1 class or maybe DPI for LMP1

[joeb]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/n...d-in-december/

Seems that the ACO want to go in the direction of the original GT1 class or maybe DPI for LMP1

just out of curiosity, how did you come to that conclusion from reading that article? I didn't see anything about a GT1 type class and as for dpi, the article said this:

although Sportscar365 understands the prospects of a shared LMP1/DPi platform have hit a road block in recent weeks, and currently appears less likely.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/n...d-in-december/

Seems that the ACO want to go in the direction of the original GT1 class or maybe DPI for LMP1

Yes, it was already mentioned for Pierre Fillon in the Auto Hebdo interview a few days ago. I recommend reading the thread GTE / GTLM 2018, on the way to a new GT1 era.

[joeb]

Graham has a very nice piece on the future direction of the LMP1 class over at DSC

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2017/1...-unpicked.html

Looks like a proposal will be submitted in December on the future of the class.

[TF110]

GT Proto huh? Sounds cool. As long as it's nearly as fast as the current lmp1's and it's not a GT lookalike class. Something like a current Mercedes CLR would be nice to see

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by TF110

GT Proto huh? Sounds cool. As long as it's nearly as fast as the current lmp1's and it's not a GT lookalike class. Something like a current Mercedes CLR would be nice to see

More like ........









L.P.

[Adam43]

https://goo.gl/images/sQH6e5

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by TF110

GT Proto huh? Sounds cool. As long as it's nearly as fast as the current lmp1's and it's not a GT lookalike class. Something like a current Mercedes CLR would be nice to see

I like GT Proto idea. The current LMP1 are very ugly and I remember that the GT1 of the late of 90s were very attractive as this Mercedes CLR LM and especially the Porsche 911 GT1 1998 that for me is the most beautiful Le Mans winner of the history. I like the return of GT1/GTP cars.

[TF110]

What if something like Class 1 is pushed to be a top class? DTM/Super GT/WEC maybe IMSA all running to a like car/chassis with some differences like the addition of hybrids and/or alternative fuel? I'd rather see a really souped up hypercar type deal or "lmp-gt proto" with some cues ala DPi but not just for appearance.

[AoB Special Stage]

I've previously proposed a Class 1+ setup for LMP1, the main concern is trying is the one regarding the nature of the road car equivalents. The Japanese three are using flagship sports cars, the DTM two are using saloons, and the WTCC (because that's still on the table somehow) would be using hatches. Someone would have to give way.

The problem is that Class 1 isn't cheap now, it's more a matter of national pride (and heavy national sponsorship) soaking up the cost.

[hondafan37]

https://scontent.fsst1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...cd&oe=5A7043FF

Definitely the Gt1 with 20 years on it is still much prettier. I love the direction that the ACO is taking with the new rules.