Blue Flags at the BGP

[paul.hickman]

In an interesting quote on CrashNet, Alonso is critical of the blue flagging at the GP which in his view probably cost him the race. He is quoted as saying "...the blue flags didn't work at all this race. I think I lost three seconds with Jarno but it was not his fault because there were no blue flags at all so he didn't know that I was fighting for the victory...”. Perhaps he doesn't realise that all blue flagging is under the direct instruction from Race Control, but I tend to agree with him as from where I was standing (Becketts Out) I saw a few waved blues at Post 7 but not much else. Any thoughts?

Finally, thanks to the team on Post 8 - a great weekend, great company and, for us, plenty of (gentle) action.

[John Turner]

I've posted a similar thread on the FI forum; I'd certainly like to hear the marshals views on this, as I suspect would the wider audience in the F1 forum.

[Hepatic]

The press conference was entertaining, as Alsono was very critical of the blues (or lack there of) and yet Kimi defended the marshals, saying that it's extremely difficult to know when to flag and when not. I guess Kimi didn't have quite so much trouble with Jarno...

[Alan Green]

I don't know about other parts of the circuit, but many of the calls we got on the blue flag radio seemed to be too late (ie the pass has already been made), and many calls didn't make sense (ie calling RedBull 1 blue when it was on it's own but RedBull2 was in a line of traffic).

Without knowing how the chain of command works to get the message out to us flaggies I don't know if/how it could be improved upon for next year.

Al.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Alan Green

....I don't know if/how it could be improved upon for next year. Al.

I do.....it's oh so simple........let the FLAG MARSHALS themselves make the descision.
They are at the GP because they are experienced in this duty and they make sound flagging descisions week-in-week-out at events all over the Country.

[stroller]

Unfortunately Mark the FIA always work to the lowest common denominator i.e they have to work on Circuits/Countries where the local track workers do not match up with what we have over here.

Hence the silly on Post times and frequent inspections.

They can't be seen to favour one country over another.

(Not that they would be flexible with the rules anyway !!)

[adstubbs]

I was there in civvies yesterday, and I was surprised at the lack of blues for Trulli. I'm still fairly new to marshalling so have only done one FIA meeting so far (the GT/WTCC at Silverstone this year). I hadn't realised that blue flag decisions were made solely by race control for FIA events, and my concern would be that this isn't known by a large number of race fans, meaning that it's the marshals who get unfairly blamed by Alonso and others, when the decison on when to blue flag has been taken out of their hands.

[Grandslammer]

I cannot comment personally on the "blue" flag communications,as I had control of the "yellow" flag radio all weekend .A Dutch Flag Marshal(Patrick),was part of our team of three and was given control of the blue flag radio.I can honestly say his flagging was impeccable during the GP .The radio system in my opinion has never functioned to the best of its ability,since being introduced. Martyn(Flag team member Abbey out,Post 17)

[Paul Newns]

From where I was at Post 2 I can say I saw some examples of good blue flagging and some missed blues. I'll own up to missing a blue on Sato for Montoya. It is difficult as the frontal area of the car is small and many of the colour schemes are similar from a distance, especially with the sun reflecting off them. As for the radios, I've never liked them.

[TwoSheds]

Originally Posted by Grandslammer

I cannot comment personally on the "blue" flag communications,as I had control of the "yellow" flag radio all weekend .A Dutch Flag Marshal(Patrick),was part of our team of three and was given control of the blue flag radio.I can honestly say his flagging was impeccable during the GP .The radio system in my opinion has never functioned to the best of its ability,since being introduced. Martyn(Flag team member Abbey out,Post 17)

Exactly what I was thinking, I was stationed at Hanger Straight, Post 10, and only have direct experience of the yellow flag radio. The FIA should allow flag marshals to use their experience. If they insist on using the current system at least the (correct) car and location should be used (if they can get the information out to us quick enough!).

[Peter Harding]

Can I offer a radical new idea. Having seem Mr Baracello overtaken very successful on the Thusday at Rockinghan without the need for blue flag, why not use the eco-marathon process. - No flags but overtaking driver sounds his horn all the time he is trying to overtake.

[bluebeard]

ok well as others are posting on this subject i will as well! personally i found the blue flag radio instructions were well short of what we've come to expect in past years
(having been allocated a blue flag radio), for approx the 1st 30 laps we heard no instructions whatsoever then as said by Alan Green, the only instruction we got was who to blue, not where or for who as in past years.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by adstubbs

II hadn't realised that blue flag decisions were made solely by race control for FIA events

Only for the GP, not for others. Unfortunately many of the GP these days don't have experienced marshals, so Race Control intervene. It would make sense to differentiate between countries where they are experienced (and selection is based on such) and those where they are selected because they can come that week-end. However, that would assume that FIA know the difference.

[Grandslammer]

From what I mentioned in my earlier post,the excellent flagging given by my Dutch colleague,must have been done under his own initiative

[thebear]

I replied to this item in the F-1 forum, stating the FIA `directions' but it seems to have been ignored there.

One practice here in the US is a `call ahead' whenever a Black Flag is directed. Two or three flag stations before the actual black flag station spot the miscreant car and announce it's location as well as confirm the color as well as the two or three cars are ahead of the `victim'. The same applies to the Starter's position. Most circuits in the US use radios so "Radio Silence" is necessary except for emergencies.

Having worked the US GP at Indy in '02 as both the designated communicator as well as designated blue flagger as well as running Race Control for the Dayatona 24hrs and many club events I can state that the `call ahead' system is workable.

[andrew_powell98]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

I do.....it's oh so simple........let the FLAG MARSHALS themselves make the descision.
They are at the GP because they are experienced in this duty and they make sound flagging descisions week-in-week-out at events all over the Country.

When at the US GP this year and last year (when we had a race) the blue flaggers were allowed to make the call themselves. It works well and aslong as teh flaggers are kept abrest of what is happening ie race order who pits.

[Robert Duncan]

There is no doubt that blue flagging at the speeds involved with F1 can be a challenge. The low profile of the cars and some similar color schemes adds to the difficulty.

I had difficulty at Montreal on turn 6 and the radio hints were inconsistent. Sometimes calling for "blue flag car 19", sometimes "blue flag Sauber 2", sometimes "blue flag Sato". The best would have been "blue flag car 12, Sauber 2, Massa".

When there is a blue flag network available, I think the blue flaggers could help each other with radio calls of the cars through their corners, especially when they just missed a blue flag. For me hearing "Sauber 2, turn 5, first of three" would have been a big help at turn 6.

[paul.hickman]

Originally Posted by thebear

One practice here in the US is a `call ahead' whenever a Black Flag is directed. Two or three flag stations before the actual black flag station spot the miscreant car and announce it's location as well as confirm the color as well as the two or three cars are ahead of the `victim'.

Having worked the US GP at Indy in '02 as both the designated communicator as well as designated blue flagger as well as running Race Control for the Dayatona 24hrs and many club events I can state that the `call ahead' system is workable.

Having been somewhat dismissive of the US system in the past (actually I completely misunderstood it!), the 'landline' system was used at Brands Hatch a couple of years ago when we were fortunate to host the CHAMP cars (sadly only for that one year). The 'call ahead' system (i.e. posts reporting the present location of the target car) was extremely effective. In fact it was used not only for black flag situations but also for highlighting other probable incidents (for example cars running 'hot' i.e about to expire!).

How race control actually identify cars to blue flag marshals at our GP I know not, but if the 'call ahead' system is not used then perhaps it ought to be evaluated.

[Rich D]

Having just worked comm (on a lind line) for this weekend's Champ Car Race in Toronto, (with the Racegypsy as my blue flagger) it worked something like this:
Basically, blue decisions were left to the flagger, but every 5 laps we got a run-down of top 5, last car on lead lap and cars 1 or 2 laps down.
Also could hear from Pit-in numbers of cars pitting, and calls from other corners when the lead changed, or there was an incident invloving the leader.
When it got critical, control would come on line with "Help the leaders past car 8" or "Make sure car 55 does not become an issue".
My job was to pass these messages onto Bob - worked really well.
Some stations had a second comm set for the blue flagger, where they were remote from the main comm.

We were also the black flag station, and tracking by the 3 stations ahead of us (Car 5, 3rd of 3 in 6) was almost essential to find the right car.

Yes, it is also very useful for "Car 7 smoking centre rear" info -- we can all look for it, or get warning of an approaching slow car, all in real-time.

At Montreal GP, they used a seperate net for blue flaggers - essentially, they had the backup radios on, and instructions were issued through them. However, at the morning meeting, we were told that net was supplementary, and basically the race should be blue flagged like any other.

IMO, land lines work really well

[M Greenslade]

Being told when to blue flag, no wonder I have not done a GP for nearly 20 years, it is pant's - Balders

[Robert Duncan]

Originally Posted by M Greenslade

Being told when to blue flag, no wonder I have not done a GP for nearly 20 years, it is pant's - Balders

I never felt like I was be "told when to blue flag" at a F1 event, it was more like being alerted to a blue flag opportunity.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by paul.hickman

Having been somewhat dismissive of the US system in the past (actually I completely misunderstood it!), the 'landline' system was used at Brands Hatch a couple of years ago when we were fortunate to host the CHAMP cars (sadly only for that one year). The 'call ahead' system (i.e. posts reporting the present location of the target car) was extremely effective. In fact it was used not only for black flag situations but also for highlighting other probable incidents (for example cars running 'hot' i.e about to expire!).

How race control actually identify cars to blue flag marshals at our GP I know not, but if the 'call ahead' system is not used then perhaps it ought to be evaluated.

The 'call ahead' system works fine at most meetings for particular tasks like Black Flag car Number 33.

Even with a dedicated landline were everyone speaking can be heard instantaneously...with the blinding speed of F1 at some tracks..... there is almost never enough time to react......you would soon get out of kilter when things got hectic as Race Control started to ask for information about the whereabouts of car X, how is the recovery going, what is the drivers condition, get that looney Priest off the track!! etc etc...

call ahead (IMHO) is a great aid to Marshals but is least practical for F1 in all but the quietest of races.

[Robert Duncan]

With a seperate blue flagger network, there is nothing on that net except events that affect the leaders (blue flag opportunities). When the "blue flag car xx" hint is called by race control, which ever station has the car can blind call it's position.

[Clive]

Notwithstanding all that's been said, yet again in this weeks autoexpress, yet another article rubbishing the marshals on blue flags - I wasn't flagging this year but am extremely peed off by the extremely negative media coverage of our craft when it is patently not our fault in this situation but we are held to blame. Don't the drivers know that race control cals the blue flag for the GP as flaggies with 20+ years experience obviously don't know when to put it out!
I have written to them and ot autosport so it'll be intersting to see if they print it and do any sort of follow up?

[Grandslammer]

Sadly some people tend to believe all that they read or listen to.Unless there has been some retort from the Marshalling sector,it is also onesided. My personal opinion is that many sectors of the motor racing fraternity are,frankly,unaware of marshalling proceedures at any motorsport event,let alone the Grand Prix