My Tracks Raceway 4

[Purist]

For me, it's looking like either Nicky's or TR's proposal.

With Nicky's, my main thoughts are that the first hairpin there (turn 4 or 5 depending on how you count that first long 180) looks really angular, not smooth at all. My other thought is that the entrance to the long 180 that leads into the final two bends ought to be loosened up some. I like the overall layout.

TR, with yours, I think the first turn should be loosened to 60-75 degrees rather than the 90 that it is now. Those three turns leading onto the long stretch at the top of the picture would I think work better if you made that into a long triple-apex corner, instead of those three separate kinks. As it is now, I think having those corners like that really breaks things up on that section of the course, and could hurt overtaking on the backstretch. Third, I would ease the second of the bends after the haipin. Finally, I would turn that 90 and left-hand bend before the penultimate 180 into a quick esse.

Hopefully, I'll be able to get the GIMP or some other program up and running on my machine so I can provide the diagrams and not just the descriptions.

Anyway, everyone, have a good holiday, and as for me, I'm going to enjoy my day. I'm 19 today.

[Alwaysfirst]

Happy Birthday Purist!! It's my 18th birthday in 13 days aswell!! Anyway I feel that Nicky's circuit's mid-section would be just too tight. While the Nurburgring may be jaggedy like that, only if the circuit were Nurburgring length would some of those hairpins work and if it were that length the fastest sections would be stupidly fast. I think 8km very max would work on that circuit, certainly no less than 6km. Anyway... here's my edit of FIRE's circuit.



corners with purple dots next to them are the ones that I would see as having a significant amount of camber, while the green dots show banking. I feel that this would make the 1st turn very challenging (a la Piratella), would turn the hairpin into a real feature corner (a la Caroussell) rather than just another hairpin. The banking on the next corner would allow drivers to go flat-out round it relying on pure mechanical grip, rather than aerodynamic grip, making overtaking much easier. As you can see I have enlarged the 1st turn, kept the second turn while adding a new section in the bottom-right-hand corner of the plan, that includes a decreasing radius corner (a la T1-Suzuka) & a series of esses leading to the hairpin, that I would see as being v. similar to Suzuka's esses. The 2 90degree corners that came after the next long straight I have replaced with a 3-apexed corner which I feel would be more challenging. 5 corners further on I have tightened the 90degree corner to promote overtaking. This is then followed by a double apex corner that leads onto the straight before the final esses. Hope you like!

[FIRE]

I like your improvements Alwaysfirst.

@ Purist:

[shambles]

Happy Birthday Purist - nice improvements AF

PAUL

[Alwaysfirst]

Can't anybody think of any improvements for my design then? (though thanks very much for the good feedback!)

[shambles]

I think you've got it pretty much spot on with that AF mate

PAUL

[the_royksopp]

Yeah.

I made some changes .

MTR project IV v.TR2

[shambles]

No offence T_R, but I think I prefer AF's mods. I think to get rid of the multi-apex corners, isn't a great idea, and the same logic applies to the Karussel type corner. But I agree that perhaps the 4th corner, in the south east of the circuit could perhaps be remodified? And i also like the exit of 15 just south of the final esses on the map, but it should rejoin the approach to the next corner at the kink before hand, i'll try and draw up my thoughts.

PAUL

[shambles]

This is what I came up with;



I changed the section outlined in red, in order to maintain the sweep beforehand, whilst added a passing opportunity, although I'm not happy with the corner I created itself, I think someone could refine it.

And secondly, the area outlined in yellow had used T_R's exit from that corner, before rejoining just after the kink, slighty altering the first turn of that next complex, but nothing major - just a slight allignment change.

PAUL

[Jam35]

I like the way this track's going... so I've made a few changes.



The most blatant one is that I've moved the start - the first corner was way too last-corner-ish and the second corner was well on the way to being first-corner-ish. To achieve this, I've lengthened two straights. The new last corner I've changed from a straightforward banked-180-degree turn to a Parabolica - just a matter of my personal taste really. The new first corner I've changed from a boring slow constant-radius corner to a proper La-Source-style hairpin. (Let's have some first corner first lap drama!)

Because of this change, I've realigned the shortcut (which doubles as an escape road). I've also added a Tiergarten-esque (Zoo) chicane on the now extremely fun long back straight for the benefit of FIA nancies.

At the other end of the shortcut, I've removed the silly chicane on the main circuit and tightened what is now Turn 18 to hopefully provide some room for overtaking.

Following TR's edit, I've added a hairpin in the bottom-right corner, with some minor changes to the corners either side to make it flow better. It now is beginning to resemble Rouen down there.

As AF has mentioned banking and camber, I've sketched in some rough thoughts on elevation.

Oh, and I nearly forgot to mention - I think that second triple-apex job (20, then variant on my plan) would seem like the poor relation of the first one (14, 15, 16). I also don't like how short it would make the run-in to the esses. I've left it there as a late-1970s-style barbaric short-cut, but added a section west of there with Sudschliefe / Laguna Seca / Monaco / Bremgarten tendencies.

Hope we're now getting somewhere...

[Alwaysfirst]

Comments-while I like parabolica-type corners I think that the 180-degree banked corner was just that little bit more special. I felt that your new T1 was way too tight-more of a Magny-Cours Adelaide hairpin than a flowing Brands Hatch Druids hairpin. While I like the next section I feel that my corner was better than the hairpin that you have put there. I think that you can have too many hairpins in a circuit & I felt that that would be 1 too many. While you may think that the chicane on the main circuit was silly I was imagining it being a reversed-elevation version of Laguna Seca's Corkscrew (ie. a fast steep downhill run into the corner with a really steep climb out). I can't say that I really like your new section at all. While I do like the long flowing straights I feel that there are just too many hairpins for it to be fun. It's one of the things that you notice really quickly about circuits like the Nurburgring-there are very few corners that are the same, whereas on yours if there is much difference between the hairpins then I just can't see it. Plus I feel that many of them would be just too tight. However I do love the elevation ideas that you have suggested, especially for the T14, 15, 16 complex. I think that that elevation would make it a really exciting corner. Martin-I don't mind the change to T4 but I just think that it would be the type of corner that if it was made too tight on the exit then it would spoil the run in as well as preventing overtaking. In the same vein I don't mind the changes in the N-W of the circuit but I would in fact be tempted to leave them as they are as I feel that to have a smaller kink would allow more overtaking into the 90-degree corner. Perhaps once you have read my explanation of the chicane before that complex you will understand why I have chosen to leave that section as it is. However all of what I have just said is personal preference so feel free to disagree!

[the_royksopp]

Ah, that's sligthly too long there, Jam.

So far, i think a combination of martins and mine would do.

I'd like to see some more designers on the project though .

[mandretti39]

Here is my edit of Alwaysfirst's latest track. I rounded out a few corners, removed the esses on the left side of the track, placed a new set of esses on the right side of the track, and looking at the track and the placement of my esses and the sweeping corners at one end of the main straight, along with the parabolica like corner at the other end, decided the track could be run counterclockwise.

Here is the track...

[the_royksopp]

Arh. Dont like that chicane down there. And there's not enough tight corners on the track .

[Lustigson]

I thought we hated tight corners?

[the_royksopp]

WE? .

No, honestly, i don't like tracks with no tight corners. It's not challenging enough just to have esses and sweepers, and the occasional parabolica .

[Alwaysfirst]

I don't like that new chicane and I think it would be a pity to get rid of the multi-apex corner but apart from that it's ok!

[the_royksopp]

Okay, made a number of changes here.

First of all, the muliple apex' at the top left clearly are popular, so i left them in the picture, as did i the parabola that is T1. I altered T2 however, giving it some resemblance to KLIA at Sepang, although a bit tighter. I'm not really satisfactory about this part yet though.

The section in the lower right corner didn't float my boat at all, so i rounded it off, and made just a corner out of it.

Now, a problem was, that there was an almost unlimited high speed piece from the corner in the lower left corner, and until T1, which would be highly unrealistic.

Now, the Corkscrew up the straight after the lower left corner is great, and the multiple apex' has to stay aswell. Thus i inserted a curving straight heading up to a corner after the Corkscrew.

MTRpIV v.TR3

[Alwaysfirst]

I think when most of us said the multiple-apex corner we ment the corner in the bottom left hand corner-or at least I did.

[the_royksopp]

You did!? I always thought it was that nice section in the top left corner.

[Lustigson]

I had a go at the new track, too. Check it out.



I tried to create a few more overtaking opportunities. Plus it had, like TR said earlier, a bit too much fast corners and long sweeps, to my taste. Because of that, it lacked a certain 'realism', if you will.

[shambles]

Both multi-apexers need to be retained.

Lustigson, I like the changes you made the exit of the second hairpin, but I, with all due respect don't like the snail type corner you installed. The first corner is also cool. I think more work needs to be done on turn 4, in the south east.

PAUL

[the_royksopp]

With all due respect, i'm not too fond of that. You ruined the esses down at the bottom, the corkscrew and the esses before the start-finish straight too.

[the_royksopp]

And Martin, both multiple apex' cannot be retained - they pose the essential problem that Lustig and I suggested - the question of safety and realism.

[shambles]

Safety and Realism is not an issue. The first multi-apexer would be flat out, true, but the second wouldn't the first corner of it is quite tight and would be actually quite good for overtaking imo.

The esses need to re-installed also on the bottom left.

This track works best in a clockwise fashion. I assumed we were using it as a clockwise track? Is that the case? If not, I must urge you to think about having it clockwise.

Both multi-apexers could be inplemented no problem, maybe tighten the corner in between them. I see absolutly no real problem in having both.

PAUL